Haven Collective

Stephanie Evans  
Today I'm talking with Melissa Blackburn, co-creator of Haven Collective, a co-working space in Upper Arlington. Welcome, Melissa, and thank you for joining us. 





Melissa Blackburn  
Thank you so much for having me. Very excited. 

Stephanie Evans  
I have to say, it's been so fun for me to follow you and Danielle, as you've built your business. An amazing work environment over there next door, as a matter of fact. But I remember meeting you the first time and walking through your building wearing a hard hat. 

Melissa Blackburn  
And we still have those pictures. We love them.

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, wearing a hard hat and listening to your vision. And I was just so excited for you. And it's been such a gift to me to be able to kind of watch you guys grow with it. So I appreciate that you reached out to us so early in your business so we could be kind of part of that. I feel like a proud aunt! 

Melissa Blackburn  
Well, you guys have been so supportive. And I just remember being really impressed with how involved the chamber was and how committed you are to our success. So you know, we owe a large Thank you, to you for that support too.

Stephanie Evans  
It's been fun. It's been really fun for us. So I'm thinking though, how long ago was that? 

Melissa Blackburn  
Oh, my goodness. So we came up with the idea in April of 2017, and then started taking on co workers in October of 2017. Just in our upstairs. 

Stephanie Evans  
That happened pretty quickly.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, I don't I don't tend to move slowly. And then we opened our full building and welcomed everyone we could starting in February of 2018. 

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, it did happen quickly. So it wasn't that long after I started here, right. I met you. 

Melissa Blackburn  
You were pretty new when we started.

Stephanie Evans  
So we'll circle back to some of that. But I want to start our talk today with same question that we ask everyone, which is, what did you want to be when you grew up when you were a kid? And then how does that play into what you're doing today?

Melissa Blackburn  
What a great question. When I grew up, I actually wanted to be an actress. I begged my parents to send me to acting classes and was lucky enough to get a lot of roles and theater through high school. I even went to theater school one day a week for high school. 

Melissa Blackburn  
And come time for college, my parents had very different ideas about what I should do. And we're not really supportive of me going to theater school for college. So I went the more traditional route. So it does play into what I do today. Because though I haven't thought about it till you just ask this question. Having that comfort and being able to talk to people and get on stage and not be afraid to be silly, or make a fool of myself, I think you need that when you're starting your own business, because it can be very nerve wracking to put yourself out there.

Stephanie Evans  
I would think so. And the confidence that you built by being on on stage in front of people.

Melissa Blackburn  
I think I just was from a young age, not afraid to fail. So I think the theater really helped me to build that confidence. 

Stephanie Evans  
Good for you and for your parents. We actually had a conversation in another podcast about failure. And, and that sometimes, you know, as parent we don't want our kids to fail, nobody wants to fail, but how to pick up those bootstraps and keep going when you do and being kind of fearless of failure.

Melissa Blackburn  
Resilience is very important. My husband and I talk about that a lot as we're raising two young children. We have a two year old and a four year old and we try to really focus on allowing them to fail and not fixing everything for them and helping them build that confidence in that resilience.  

Stephanie Evans  
Because, you know, no matter what you do, somewhere along the way, you're going to have a failure might be in varying degrees. It might be that you've earned the birthday cake, but you gotta figure what you're going to do, and be willing to make a birthday cake. Or run down to the store.

Stephanie Evans  
So tell us then about your business, Haven Collective.

Melissa Blackburn  
So Haven Collective is a co-working space at its core, we have everything from general memberships, where people can come in and work in our open spaces, all the way up to dedicated desks and offices. We've designed it so that entrepreneurs can come in at any stage of their journey and really have a plan that fits their budget and fits their needs. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Of course, everyone's there working and trying to get their best work done throughout the day. But we also like to provide other amenities that help them have some balance as well. So we do things like once a week, we have an hour of yoga. We also have a meditation once a week, 10 minutes. I think people think will meditation, but it's just, it's really quick. And it's nice to ground yourself for 10 minutes a week. And then, of course, the fun stuff like wine Wednesdays, you know, three o'clock we put out the wine and invite everyone to come and mingle. 

Melissa Blackburn  
We are also constantly doing events for our members. We're committed to helping them grow personally and professionally and get out of their shell with some networking, but fun networking so that they can learn how to pitch what they do, and meet other entrepreneurs.

Melissa Blackburn  
There's a lot going on at Haven. But really, we try and stress the collaboration in the community aspect and making sure everyone understands they have other entrepreneurs around them that are on the same journey that can help them. Not just because they can understand what they're going through, but could possibly help their business grow through collaboration.

Stephanie Evans  
Right. I remember very early on that was one of the things when I still had the hard hat on talked about in terms of the kinds of businesses that you would like to attract would be some that that could potentially help each other. So yeah, we've got this kind of business, but you need a CPA to help you get your taxes Well, that's someone just down the hall or employee who can write up your LLC is just down at the other end of the hall and, and kind of create a team within the walls of your building.

Melissa Blackburn  
Well said, That's exactly right. It's all about relationships. And so I think a lot of entrepreneurs come in having worked from home and being isolated, and just trying to figure it out on their own. And then they quickly learn not, you know, these co workers who they build trust with can actually be people that help them move forward and just give them more confidence in their business. So it's been a really beautiful thing to watch.

Stephanie Evans  
I love the the language that you guys use to describe Haven on your website. One of the things that you have is that your "An ecosystem for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and side hustlers." And hustlers a word that I see a lot in there. And so, so tell me about that sort of the, the brand that you guys are achieving with some of the language that you're using.

Melissa Blackburn  
Ours is interesting, because Danielle and I are so different. And rather than fight that, we decided to use it as part of our brand. You know, we joke that were the yin and the yang, but really where the hustle and the flow. We try and capitalize on our differences. You know, we say, the hustle and the flow, because our approaches are just very different. And we want to make sure that people can walk in and feel supported and have that warm family feel. But we also have a very strong business background, as both of us have MBAs where it's not just warm and fuzzy. 

Melissa Blackburn  
We do want you to understand the nuts and bolts of your marketing, your finances, your accounting, you need to know those things, but you also need to feel comfortable. So using that hustle and flow to kind of show people that yes, you can be comfortable, but you need to take your business seriously. We really just took that and ran with it. Even our conference rooms are named "Hustle" and "Flow." And if you met Danielle and I together, you would very quickly see how different we are.

Stephanie Evans  
It's a little extrovert introvert somewhere on on the scale. That balance.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah,

Stephanie Evans  
It serves the needs for lots of people then when they come in and see the different personalities. That you do have and a place for them.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, I think of course, the factor that we have in common is that we're both very supportive. I think we're just supportive in different ways. And so it has worked really well because it takes every kind of person to build a collective and knowing that somebody might like Danielle's approach, or my approach, it really benefits us because we have both to offer.

Stephanie Evans  
So do you guys serve as business consultants, yourselves? Since you both have business backgrounds and MBAs? Do you consult with the members 

Melissa Blackburn  
We do. We hadn't set out to do that when we started.

Stephanie Evans  
 I remember that being part of it necessarily, and it seems like you're qualified to.

Melissa Blackburn  
Well, thank you. We feel we are. We spent so much time working with members on very tactical things like marketing plans, and and helping with things like how do you structure a p&l? You know, we got to the point where we said, well, of course, we want to make this a member benefit. But beyond a few hours, here and there, what can we turn this into? 

Melissa Blackburn  
So we both do take on what we call like coaching clients here and there for people who need more in depth help. So Danielle focuses mainly on marketing and helping people understand who is their customer, what is the brand story that they want to tell. And then what does their content calendar look like with those factors. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Whereas I work more with entrepreneurs on Okay, now you know who your target audience is and who you're trying to go for. Let's talk about your pricing and your sales tactics, your sales funnel and CRM and let's let's really talk about how to get the revenue coming through the door.

Stephanie Evans  
Right. Okay. Yes. You both lend different specialties. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Yes.

Stephanie Evans  
Well, yeah, that's kind of awesome, then that's just sort of stemmed out of the business. Not necessarily part that you planned for it but evolving.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, it was definitely a complete organic thing. And it's a lot of fun.

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, good. Good. Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about advice. What would you say the best advice that you got from someone when you said, I'm going to start a business,

Melissa Blackburn  
it might be sad to say, I think a lot of people just were pretty cautious. 

Stephanie Evans  
Did they think you were crazy?

Melissa Blackburn  
It was such a change from what I had been doing. I'd worked in corporate America my entire career. Anyone who really knew me at my core, could have told you that I was going to own my own business at some point, I just have a very entrepreneurial spirit. 

Melissa Blackburn  
The best advice I got was, someone told me that I should understand that everyone's going through the same thing as I am. So in the days when I felt really alone, or really anxious, or really nervous about this, to really understand that everyone else feels that too, and I'm human, and to give myself some leeway to sit in that. Take a minute, figure it out. You're not alone. You know, find your people find your people you can talk to and find them fast, because it's a roller coaster. So and I really took that advice to heart.

Stephanie Evans  
And it sounds like with the members that you have at Haven, you've kind of created a space for them to do that, too, when they're struggling, or when they need advice. Or need to know somebody with a different specialty. You've created an environment so that they can find that.

Melissa Blackburn  
Absolutely, Danielle, and I have our own team that we look to that we consider our go to. But then we of course, try to be that for the members in our organization, and then encourage them to be that for each other. 

Stephanie Evans  
So what do you feel like has been your biggest challenge 

Melissa Blackburn  
The change from corporate has been interesting because going from a structure and a routine where I was accountable to a CEO to now being a co CEO. I am a very self-directed and driven person. But it's a whole other level of accountability when I mean, who's paying attention if you don't do it?  Nobody. 

Melissa Blackburn  
I always led a large team and I always felt like I was somewhat running my own like company in my own mind. But having a board that I reported. And a CEO that I reported to put a different level of pressure. And I don't say that word in a negative sense. Like, it just challenged me to get better all the time. Because I literally had a board I had to get in front of and impress every month, and now it's like, how do I continue to drive myself to do better and to grow professionally without someone else laying those challenges out for me. 

Stephanie Evans  
So it has to come from within a little bit. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Exactly. And just, you know, stepping back from the day to day and really seeing my weaknesses or blind spots on little areas where I'd want to just grow and get better.

Stephanie Evans  
How do you do with time management?

Melissa Blackburn  
Oh, time management. Yes, I'm big believer in time blocking. You know, Danielle and I work very closely on our calendars, making sure that we each have time for what we need to accomplish personally and professionally. So I'm lucky that my partner is understanding of my responsibilities as a mother as a wife, my own personal goals.

Stephanie Evans  
 You've got a lot going on.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, so time blocking is crucial. I know, my best hours are 8am to 1pm, that's when my brain works the best. So I really put blocks in place in those hours to do the harder tasks in my day, you know, making sure that I'm doing my marketing and sales follow ups and all my financial work in those hours, and blocking that off and giving myself permission to step away from running the space during those times to doing the deeper work. Working on the business instead of in it. 

Stephanie Evans  
Right, so not at the front desk.

Melissa Blackburn  
Right, right. We both love being there. We love seeing when people walk in and greeting them and understanding how their days going. But sometimes you have to tuck yourself away and get some other stuff done.

Stephanie Evans  
I find that to you. Like, sometimes I have to close out my email so that I'm not seeing a new email pop up every time I'm trying to get something else done. You can we really have to kind of compartmentalize and be able to focus.

Melissa Blackburn  
And I find that the time blocking helps too, because all those little tasks add up. And if you give yourself permission to say, well, that's a financial matter. And I deal with those Mondays from you know, 11am to 1pm, you just put it for that time.

Stephanie Evans  
You're structuring it that way. So you have your, your time blocks are specific topics. Finances on this day, at this time, and, you know, marketing at this day on this time.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, I just find that like, if you're tackling them all at once, it helps you to see like, bigger picture. What our processes and procedures that you can be putting in place to be more efficient. And that just goes back to my operations background, I think I'm always trying to look for efficiencies in process. So that's just worked well for me. 

Stephanie Evans  
That's great advice. I have to try that.

Stephanie Evans  
So when you do have a challenge come up. What helps you persevere? What keeps you going? 

Melissa Blackburn  
So I'm a person of extreme faith. I pray lot. I am usually quick to make a decision. And if I can't be decisive in the moment, I give myself the space to sit back and think and pray on it and figure it out. And so far, so good. That that works for me. 

Melissa Blackburn  
You know, I think that most of my decisions or challenges can be solved like very quickly. But I find that if I don't really know what to do in the moment, giving myself just a little bit of space to say, you know what, I'm not going to decide on this until tomorrow, even so far as like, tomorrow night, not even to like, worry about it. 

Melissa Blackburn  
And oftentimes, subconsciously, the answer will come to me. I'll be driving or at the gym or something. And it's like, oh, there's the answer right in front of me. But rather, you know, I think my younger self would have tried to like out think it and just solve it right away, and it would eat at me. Whereas now it's like, well, if the answer isn't clear up front, I probably just need to like, step back for a minute. And typically, it just clears itself up.

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, I think my nature is that I'm a deliberater or so I naturally take that time to think about things. But then once I've reached that point, where it's like, okay, I thought about this, and then, and then it comes to me, it's like, Okay, and then I make my decision really quickly. Because I feel like I've taken so much time to process. 

Melissa Blackburn  
I used to do like, the whole pro and con list thing. And, like, be so practical about it. But I just find like, if I can just breathe and just ask for clarity, just tends to work for me.

Stephanie Evans  
So if you had to do things over again, is there anything you do differently?

Melissa Blackburn  
I would have bought a bigger space.

Melissa Blackburn  
I knew it was going to be awesome. But it is just so far exceeded where we ever thought it could be. And I just wish I could take in more people. I wish I could serve a larger audience. And I just am so grateful that we're at a point where we're talking about how we make an even bigger impact. Because now this little thing that we thought would be cool has taken off, and we know we can do more. 

Stephanie Evans  
So I was just there last week. And hopped in, and it was it was hustling. there were a lot of people around. I didn't go over to the library, the quiet side. But upstairs are all your offices, are they all leased up?

Melissa Blackburn  
Yep, every office is full. We have one dedicated desk coming up, that'll be available. We're still of course accepting members. So we have room I don't want people to be turned away. Like we definitely have room in the shared space and and room in our community to welcome different thought leaders and, you know, different people from different backgrounds. So we're just excited to see how we can diversify our community. 

Stephanie Evans  
So when you like you just said, a desk is going to be opening up or let's say an office opens up. I know that your business is still young, but when those desks or those spaces open up, what's that person's next move? Are they going to a storefront? Are they going to a bigger office? I mean, are you sort of an incubator in a way? 

Melissa Blackburn  
I think kind of similar to our story. A lot of people come to us when they're just getting started. And thinking, like, I have a really cool idea. And then things go way better than they thought. And typically, they're moving into an office, which is why our offices like filled up so fast, or just just stories are totally different. 

Melissa Blackburn  
We had one woman who was working from home, feeling very isolated, decided to get a desk so that she could have a community around her. And I think when she had more structure in her day, was able to think like, what's going to make me happy in life and decided she wanted to be in Colorado, she wanted to be around the mountains. And so she was able to take her job and moved Colorado. And we still keep in touch with her, and she's still part of our community via our private Facebook. But, you know, that's just one story. 

Melissa Blackburn  
I think being part of the community, people are so encouraged, whether that means Yeah, I'm going to take a trip across the country, or I'm going to move up to an office or, you know, I'm ready to take this gig even bigger and get a storefront.

Stephanie Evans  
So it's a confidence builder, for whatever that next step is. Ok. So my last question is about success. And how would you define success? And, and how do you know when you're there?

Melissa Blackburn  
Hmm. I've been thinking about that one a lot lately. Because I think you really do have to decide what success looks like to you. You know, if you'd asked me this question 10 years ago, I probably would have associated it with having a big paycheck, that sort of thing. 

Melissa Blackburn  
But it just looks so different now.

Melissa Blackburn  
To me, being able to call the shots in my own life is success in a nutshell. Not being beholden to anyone else, being able to take time off and be present with my children, take time and be with my husband, live life, basically, on my terms.

Melissa Blackburn  
It's just so freeing. It just feels really good. And I don't think that I would trade that for the big fat paycheck. 

Melissa Blackburn  
As life is a little easier in some levels and that way, but there's a lot more pressure that comes with that too. And I think so many people that I talked to, who make the leap from corporate have that "aha moment" as well. Like, wait a minute, I was so scared about losing the money, you know, so scared. Well, what would life would look like, and losing that financial freedom. 

Melissa Blackburn  
But you find you need a lot less, you spend a lot less and different things become important to you. And I just sleep a lot better at night now. And so I think just continuing to remind myself on the hard days that like, I just don't answer to any anyone. And if I needed to leave right now and go pick up my kids from school, I can do that. And it's just to me, that's huge. 

Stephanie Evans  
Good for you. Congratulations. Great way to wrap up.  How do we find you on your social media or website?

Melissa Blackburn  
You can find us on our website at www.HavenColumbus. com. We do communicate with our audience very frequently through Facebook @havencollective, and through Instagram,@havencollective as well. So always excited to see a new follower and get you engaged in the conversation. So we'd love to see more people from the TriVillage Chamber, people from Upper Arlington, following along and getting to the conversation with us.

Stephanie Evans  
Great. Thank you so much. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Thank you.

Central City Church

Stephanie Evans Today we're talking with Allyssa and Joe Graves, of Central City Church in Grandview Heights. Welcome to you guys and thanks for joining us today. Allysa Graves Yeah, thanks for having us. Stephanie Evans So starting a church is a little different than starting a business. But I would imagine that there are many aspects of it that you have to treat as a business in order to be successful. So those are the things I'd like to talk to you about today. Running a church as a business and how you guys got started with Central City Church. Stephanie Evans So to kick us off, we always ask the same question of everyone. And that is, what did you want to be when you're a child? And how does that tie into where you are today? Allysa Graves Yes. So when I was growing up, I, I think I just wanted to save the world. So I remember wanting to be a marine biologist, because I wanted to say all the animals and wanting to be a missionary because I want to save all the kids around the world. And I want to be a teacher because I want to save all the high schoolers that we're getting trouble. And so I just wanted to save the world. And now I am none of those. But I am a pastor. So you know, it works because I get to help people where they're at, and bring light into a neighborhood or into people's life. Joe Graves I would say that when I was, especially in high school, I was really kind of trying to wrestle, did I do I want to go into ministry? And specifically do I want to be a missionary. So I mean, we have that in common. There's something like romantic I think, in our Christian world at the time about being a missionary, and the adventure and sacrifice that went with that. So I think there's probably a lot of people who grew up in similar environments that felt that way. Then also kind of want to do something creative. I was really into art really enjoyed creativity. So I really wrestled a lot with, you know, should I go into art? Or should I go into ministry of some sort? And now I think as a pastor of a church, and especially a new church start, we got to do a lot both so really have fun doing the ministry, being a pastor, but then being able to do some of the creative stuff from marketing to other types of creative endeavors. Stephanie Evans So it does kind of come full circle and bring your passions all together. Allysa Graves Which is the, the good thing about being able to start your own, whatever, because we get to kind of shape and form how and what that looks like. Joe Graves We get to develop the culture and, and also our roles in working together as co pastors, we get to develop those roles, but then also just like, the roles of what we do as a church and and the work we get to accomplish and what it looks like. Stephanie Evans So one of the things on your website says that you're doing church differently. So can you tell us about that? What does that mean? Joe Graves This actually goes back to like, starting a business. We've really tried to figure out as a church who we are, we've been a community now for a year. And so part of that it's like the classic branding, marketing conversation that any businesses, especially a new business, you have clarity of vision, you want to make sure you can tell people exactly who you are. Joe Graves So when we started, we had a particular vision, and now we've been doing it for a year, we've been asking the question, why did the people who come, what do they love about it? And I think there's something that makes us unique, and I think some of those things are personality. We embrace mystery and questions. So when it comes to like, a faith perspective, you know, like, our sermons typically aren't the answer to a question there more often ending with a question. And so that's one of things, it makes us different. And actually, a lot of people come to our church, because they're like, we feel like, there's room for conversation, we feel like you're not telling us, we have to believe a certain thing, or we get kicked out. So we try to create that space for mystery. Joe Graves And, and for creativity. That's probably another thing that makes us different. But holding things, intention would be probably the thing that makes us the most different and being welcoming to people, regardless of where they're at in life, whether they have faith at all, those are probably some things that make us different. And another thing is, we tried to be intentional about living the church out in mission. So one of the things we say is we don't try to outsource our mission. So we are church in that's engaged in doing the hard work of ministry, especially with the vulnerable and creating space for people to volunteer and give back to that. And I think in some ways that makes us different as well. Allysa Graves We are doing church different than a lot of people have experienced previously. We want to be about relationships with each other, and not not being people that have it all together, but recognizing who we are, and being vulnerable in that, and being a place where no matter who you are, what you've done, where you're going, like you can be here, and we will be there on that journey with you. Joe Graves Are you contemporary, or traditional? Are you conservative or progressive? And, and a lot of those labels don't work well for us. Allysa Graves Because we're all of that. Stephanie Evans Would you say that is part of your business model? That was the plan to kind of come in and be different? intentionally? Allysa Graves Yes, yeah, we've had a lot of experience. And I think one of the reasons why we wanted to start something new is because we weren't seeing church done the way that we would like to be a part of a church. And so yeah, it was our business model to be different, to be something that people who have had a negative experience with church could come and be welcome and, and find what they're looking for in that. And so it kind of is, we want to be different. But we want to be what we think the church is supposed to be. And so it's not necessarily that we want to be different, just for the sake of being different. But we want to be different, because we feel like the churches, something is missing in churches. Joe Graves A very sincere, genuine place for like, this is what the church could be. And we really push that. From a business marketing standpoint, you can still approach the conversation come to a similar conclusion, say, look at market research. The vast majority of people who are unchurched were churched at one time, they were a part of a church community, and maybe even associate with the church community, even if they don't attend. Joe Graves So now, now, you're saying like the majority of people who might come to our church used to go to church, which means they stopped going, and as you get to know, the people who stopped going, you're hearing stories. Some people stop going because of in different reasons, you know, neutral reasons or stop going, got bored. But a lot of people were meeting at negative experiences with church, a lot of people have been really hurt by church. So some of the stuff we're trying to do different in the way we approach it is in response to the fact that Yeah, so if people are like, I love church, and I'm all about church and churches, the best thing in the world, we don't attract a lot of those people, you know, and that's one thing it probably makes us different as well. We're really connecting with people who've been have had a negative experience. Stephanie Evans One of the things that struck me early on because I met you guys how long ago? Allysa Graves A year and a half. Stephanie Evans So you came to us pretty early on or came to the TriVillage Chamber pretty on early on when you when you first moved into Grandview. Your mobile unit, you carry a trailer. Allysa Graves Church in a Box. Stephanie Evans So you started out at the Grandview Theater, and now you're over at the CA Backspace, right. So but you you still have your trailer and you bring things with you so that you can kind of go wherever you need to go. Yeah, and I think that's kind of a unique aspect as well. Allysa Graves It is unique, it's hard, because we people ask us where we're located. And we tell them that we have like, five addresses. So at any given moment, we might be in a different location. We have our church at CA Backspace, where we bring the trailer and we set up all of our kids space, and our coffee, and our band and everything. And then we have office space at a couple different churches that we're partnering with. And we have a P.O. box. And so we have all these different addresses. And I think it does make us unique, that we're just ready to be where we need to be. Joe Graves Once again, thinking about, you're trying to connect with people who aren't going to church are ready. And one of the barriers for people is the church building itself, sometimes they a bad experience, the feeling of a church building can be a hindrance. And so being in a neutral place, like a theater or an event center, like you take away that barrier. And anytime you take a way, you know, a barrier from perspective, can you know, person who can be connected to your community, if you're thinking of it, like a business, someone who might be a client or whatever, that's a that's a huge win. So there's like, there's definitely, you know, long term, could we exist in a traditional building? Yeah, like, traditional church building? Absolutely. But to start, it's really, there's a lot of benefits to being a different place, Stephanie Evans I think some of the things that you're describing also do apply to other businesses, when we think about what others can learn from what you're doing in being flexible, being mobile, going to where people are, and just kind of being available. Thinking outside that box, I think, is really smart. Stephanie Evans So what would you say, is the best advice that someone gave you, when you said, you were going to start this business, or this church? Joe Graves For me, it would be the process of networking. And so this is just as nothing unique to the church experience. But I actually, I actually think, you know, our Jesus, which is our model for ministry, He was probably one of the best networkers in the sense that He was, when you look at the stories, Jesus, who's in the community, He's in the meeting people, and He talks about sending His disciples out to do similar stuff, He talks about this person of peace. Joe Graves And so He would send people out to these villages. He said, If you go to a house, and you meet someone, so basically, going network, we'll use modern language. And you run across somebody, and there's a positive experience, then invest in that. And if you run into somebody who doesn't like what you're doing, He says, shake off the dust. And don't worry about it. It's like this sense of like, don't let that stop you from keep going. Joe Graves Because in the process of networking, and trying to meet people who want to be a part of what you're doing, the majority of the people you meet in any business probably don't want anything to do with it, right? And so you can't on the one side, let that negativity drag you down, because that can be really hard discouraging. But then on the other hand, you have to keep going and finding those people who are interested and invest in there. Joe Graves And so the process that we've tried to do meeting new people on a regular basis and following up with them, and trying to just be in relationship without necessarily any strings attached, especially as a church like we're not trying to do any particular sale, but just be in relationship with people. And then if there's room in the community for them, then that's great. That's probably the one of the best process of just meeting new people. Allysa Graves Yeah, mine was along the same lines of just invest in the relationships that take hold, I think is is one of the things that I heard early on that, that he's been going. It's not about a large number of people. But it's investing in those relationships that are important to those people and to us. Stephanie Evans Well, one of the things that we always say at the TriVillage Chamber is, you know, we provide the networking opportunities, but you know, the more you show up, the more you get to know people, and people want to do business with people that they know. So it really kind of pays off in lots of respects. Allysa Graves It's actually been really fun for the last year and a half being a part of the TriVillage Chamber and just getting to like walk around Grandview and in the tri-village area, and just being able to, like, Oh, I know them, I've seen them at a TriVillage Chamber meeting or we've done this event together. And regardless of who's using what business it's just really fun to know more people. And so we go to restaurants that are TriVillage Chamber members, and we know that we shop at stores then and you services from the TriVillage Chamber just because we know the people. Stephanie Evans This is a nice segue too, to kind of bring up the fact that Alyssa, you have been really helpful here to our TriVillage Chamber members in stepping up to kind of organize opportunities for our members to volunteer their time. So we appreciate the work that you're doing, and look forward to having more of that coming our way too. Stephanie Evans So what would you guys say has been your biggest challenge? Allysa Graves I have a lot of answers. Stephanie Evans Well, you guys have a lot. I mean, you're, you're doing a lot you have a young child. Joe Graves He's the biggest "challenge." Allysa Graves The hardest thing we've done in the last two years is raise a child. Stephanie Evans Yeah, so I would imagine time is a struggle to manage your time between places. Allysa Graves Especially as a startup, like having to invest so much time and energy into something that's new, so that it can be successful has been a huge challenge for us. And as we work together, we're both trying to put in all of that energy. And so other things in our life, you know, it is challenging to, to make room for, for all of that. Allysa Graves I think the other thing too, there is a lot of pressure to succeed. And there's not really a lot of room in our culture for failure, at whatever scale. And so when we've most weeks or days, when we feel like we're failing, there's not really room for that for the experimentation. And so we have to keep reminding ourselves that we're still new at this. And we're still trying to figure out what this looks like, in this neighborhood. And with these people. And so yeah, I think the pressure is, is probably one of the biggest challenges. Allysa Graves Because the relationships for me are easy. I love meeting new people, and getting to know people and hearing their story. And doing church is easy for me. Coming to worship and doing seven missions and small groups is easy. But it is a lot of the pressure to succeed without room for failure. Joe Graves And the fear of failure can be really overwhelming. And I think it's as I've talked to other people who do, who started other things like this is just a common feeling. But one of the challenges also that adds to that feeling is it's abstract. I was talking to somebody who just left his job at a university to run his own business, and he's been doing on the side now is doing a full time he's like, you know, when I worked at an institution, they just like, I went in, and they told me what I need to do that day. Now, I'm my own boss, and I'm like, I'm not always sure what I'm supposed to be doing when you're your own boss. Joe Graves And I think that's really true to a start up, unless you're doing a startup that already has like a particular model that's like, this is what you do. And you've, you've bought it from some of the or someone given to you like, this is what the startup business looks like, which churches could be that, but we decided to do church differently. So we're not following a particular model struggled to find a model similar what we're doing. So in that case, when you're doing something that's truly something new, or something that's like a, like a new thing, figuring it out is this nebulous, abstract thing that you're like, all the way down to the very practical thing of how are we spending our time? And where should we be spending our time? Joe Graves That's something we talked about on a regular basis, the simple like, it plays down to that most basic thing of like, Where's our 40, probably 60 hours a week going, and should it be going there, should it be going somewhere else? And there's some models that we can get some wisdom from, but ultimately, we have to kind of figure it out as we wrestle through this new thing that exists. Stephanie Evans I think that what you mentioned about failure, and kind of no room for failure. And learning how to persevere is really, really important. I think, I know, as a parent myself, you know, none of us want to see our kids fail, right? But, and we try to protect them from that. But at the same time, you're almost giving them a gift when they do fail, so that they learn how to pick themselves up and pull themselves back together and move on. Allysa Graves And we learn from our failures. You know, like, when something doesn't work, we can do it differently next time. I think it's hard to see something fail. So, you know, we've put so much energy and time into something, we want to see it succeed. And so when it does fail, there's kind of a little heartbreak. But then also, you know, what's the perception on the outside of that failing? And even though it was experimental, does everyone understand that? And how can we communicate that in a way that like, this is okay, like, we're just learning how to do this better next time. Joe Graves And there's ways to fail well. I think it's the book Lean Startup that talks a lot about failing quicker. So you put off the failure you put off, like the potential value, you do all this pre work. And then, and then if it doesn't work, you've wasted a year of your life. Whereas if you just put out little things, and you start right away, you can learn much quicker from the failure. And so that's hard, you know, we want to, we want to, we want to put more work in at the front end, and then hope it just works a year later, after all the work we put into, instead of experimenting along the way to figure out what works so that a year later, where we've got a working product or working community or whatever. But yeah, failing quicker is something it's a good thing to do. Stephanie Evans Right, because nobody really wants to fail. Never set out that I'm going to fail today. You don't want that to happen. Joe Graves That's something I learned in my art teacher in high school is one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned. He was like, you're not going to get the drawing right the first time. So I want you guys to make three mistakes before you settle in on on your final product. So his like command, usually, when we started a project was like, All right, now go make some mistakes. And we'll get to the doing the finished product tomorrow. And I was like, it was like, really freeing. Stephanie Evans It's kind of along the same lines, as practice makes perfect. You know, when you think about like, a piano lesson. And, you know, just that like, allowing yourself for understanding that I'm going to mess up. But with practice, I get a lot better. So kind of learning from your mistakes, your failures, helps you to stick with it, right? So you're not just gonna walk away. Stephanie Evans My next question is how do you define success? And how will you know when you're there? Allysa Graves I have to remind myself on almost a daily basis, that the success for our particular business is that lives are changed. People are growing in their personal lives in their faith. And so success isn't necessarily numbers or anything like that. Allysa Graves But it's the relationships that are being built and people are finding community, and are finding hope. And so I have to remember that on a regular basis, because sometimes I get wrapped up in so much of did this program work, or did this event happen and what went well. Allysa Graves But when I hear stories of people who meet someone at our church, or in one of our volunteer opportunities, and they are ongoing friends, when they didn't have any friends in their life, they were new to Columbus, they didn't know anybody. But now they have this group of people that they can call when they need something that success for me. So no matter what our numbers are, what we do, knowing that that people are building those relationships is what's success for me. Joe Graves Along those lines, Christianity in America is a big business. Let me just if you don't know that, it's a big business. Lot of money in the whole market of Christianity from churches, the books to music, it's a weird phenomenon. We live in that business. And so it's really easy, a lot of pressure, we talk about pressure and failure and stuff, there's a lot of pressure around numbers. And, and there's a lot of pressure to treat, you know, church like a business, which it is, but at the same time for our own soul, it's really becomes unhealthy to think of it in that regard. So then we have to go back to what is success? We have to answer that question. Joe Graves And we we have to constantly remind ourselves that, you know, my answer would be similar. Alyssa, it's what does it look like to invest in one person who at the end of that relationship or down the road, and that relationship is able to now invest in someone else, and that lives are changed to these one on one relationships, what we would call discipleship, but it's really just this relationships where people lives are changed. They're moving into community with each other, they're supporting one another, and they're increasing in their ability to trust God. And that changes their life because now they're doing things they never would have done, taking a risk they never would have taken because of their their willingness in their ability to to trust God and and love each other. So I guess it was Jesus who said, you know, two great commandments love God and love others. If we see an increasing amount of people, loving God and loving others in our community, then I guess that's, that's what we would say is success. Stephanie Evans I agree, relationships are so important, I think, to any organization, no matter what you're doing those those it's really what it boils down to. So I want to thank you guys and congratulate you year and a half in and keep doing the great work that you're doing. And thank you again for the work that you do for the TriVillage Chamber. We appreciate your leadership and the part that you play here.