Central City Church

Stephanie Evans Today we're talking with Allyssa and Joe Graves, of Central City Church in Grandview Heights. Welcome to you guys and thanks for joining us today. Allysa Graves Yeah, thanks for having us. Stephanie Evans So starting a church is a little different than starting a business. But I would imagine that there are many aspects of it that you have to treat as a business in order to be successful. So those are the things I'd like to talk to you about today. Running a church as a business and how you guys got started with Central City Church. Stephanie Evans So to kick us off, we always ask the same question of everyone. And that is, what did you want to be when you're a child? And how does that tie into where you are today? Allysa Graves Yes. So when I was growing up, I, I think I just wanted to save the world. So I remember wanting to be a marine biologist, because I wanted to say all the animals and wanting to be a missionary because I want to save all the kids around the world. And I want to be a teacher because I want to save all the high schoolers that we're getting trouble. And so I just wanted to save the world. And now I am none of those. But I am a pastor. So you know, it works because I get to help people where they're at, and bring light into a neighborhood or into people's life. Joe Graves I would say that when I was, especially in high school, I was really kind of trying to wrestle, did I do I want to go into ministry? And specifically do I want to be a missionary. So I mean, we have that in common. There's something like romantic I think, in our Christian world at the time about being a missionary, and the adventure and sacrifice that went with that. So I think there's probably a lot of people who grew up in similar environments that felt that way. Then also kind of want to do something creative. I was really into art really enjoyed creativity. So I really wrestled a lot with, you know, should I go into art? Or should I go into ministry of some sort? And now I think as a pastor of a church, and especially a new church start, we got to do a lot both so really have fun doing the ministry, being a pastor, but then being able to do some of the creative stuff from marketing to other types of creative endeavors. Stephanie Evans So it does kind of come full circle and bring your passions all together. Allysa Graves Which is the, the good thing about being able to start your own, whatever, because we get to kind of shape and form how and what that looks like. Joe Graves We get to develop the culture and, and also our roles in working together as co pastors, we get to develop those roles, but then also just like, the roles of what we do as a church and and the work we get to accomplish and what it looks like. Stephanie Evans So one of the things on your website says that you're doing church differently. So can you tell us about that? What does that mean? Joe Graves This actually goes back to like, starting a business. We've really tried to figure out as a church who we are, we've been a community now for a year. And so part of that it's like the classic branding, marketing conversation that any businesses, especially a new business, you have clarity of vision, you want to make sure you can tell people exactly who you are. Joe Graves So when we started, we had a particular vision, and now we've been doing it for a year, we've been asking the question, why did the people who come, what do they love about it? And I think there's something that makes us unique, and I think some of those things are personality. We embrace mystery and questions. So when it comes to like, a faith perspective, you know, like, our sermons typically aren't the answer to a question there more often ending with a question. And so that's one of things, it makes us different. And actually, a lot of people come to our church, because they're like, we feel like, there's room for conversation, we feel like you're not telling us, we have to believe a certain thing, or we get kicked out. So we try to create that space for mystery. Joe Graves And, and for creativity. That's probably another thing that makes us different. But holding things, intention would be probably the thing that makes us the most different and being welcoming to people, regardless of where they're at in life, whether they have faith at all, those are probably some things that make us different. And another thing is, we tried to be intentional about living the church out in mission. So one of the things we say is we don't try to outsource our mission. So we are church in that's engaged in doing the hard work of ministry, especially with the vulnerable and creating space for people to volunteer and give back to that. And I think in some ways that makes us different as well. Allysa Graves We are doing church different than a lot of people have experienced previously. We want to be about relationships with each other, and not not being people that have it all together, but recognizing who we are, and being vulnerable in that, and being a place where no matter who you are, what you've done, where you're going, like you can be here, and we will be there on that journey with you. Joe Graves Are you contemporary, or traditional? Are you conservative or progressive? And, and a lot of those labels don't work well for us. Allysa Graves Because we're all of that. Stephanie Evans Would you say that is part of your business model? That was the plan to kind of come in and be different? intentionally? Allysa Graves Yes, yeah, we've had a lot of experience. And I think one of the reasons why we wanted to start something new is because we weren't seeing church done the way that we would like to be a part of a church. And so yeah, it was our business model to be different, to be something that people who have had a negative experience with church could come and be welcome and, and find what they're looking for in that. And so it kind of is, we want to be different. But we want to be what we think the church is supposed to be. And so it's not necessarily that we want to be different, just for the sake of being different. But we want to be different, because we feel like the churches, something is missing in churches. Joe Graves A very sincere, genuine place for like, this is what the church could be. And we really push that. From a business marketing standpoint, you can still approach the conversation come to a similar conclusion, say, look at market research. The vast majority of people who are unchurched were churched at one time, they were a part of a church community, and maybe even associate with the church community, even if they don't attend. Joe Graves So now, now, you're saying like the majority of people who might come to our church used to go to church, which means they stopped going, and as you get to know, the people who stopped going, you're hearing stories. Some people stop going because of in different reasons, you know, neutral reasons or stop going, got bored. But a lot of people were meeting at negative experiences with church, a lot of people have been really hurt by church. So some of the stuff we're trying to do different in the way we approach it is in response to the fact that Yeah, so if people are like, I love church, and I'm all about church and churches, the best thing in the world, we don't attract a lot of those people, you know, and that's one thing it probably makes us different as well. We're really connecting with people who've been have had a negative experience. Stephanie Evans One of the things that struck me early on because I met you guys how long ago? Allysa Graves A year and a half. Stephanie Evans So you came to us pretty early on or came to the TriVillage Chamber pretty on early on when you when you first moved into Grandview. Your mobile unit, you carry a trailer. Allysa Graves Church in a Box. Stephanie Evans So you started out at the Grandview Theater, and now you're over at the CA Backspace, right. So but you you still have your trailer and you bring things with you so that you can kind of go wherever you need to go. Yeah, and I think that's kind of a unique aspect as well. Allysa Graves It is unique, it's hard, because we people ask us where we're located. And we tell them that we have like, five addresses. So at any given moment, we might be in a different location. We have our church at CA Backspace, where we bring the trailer and we set up all of our kids space, and our coffee, and our band and everything. And then we have office space at a couple different churches that we're partnering with. And we have a P.O. box. And so we have all these different addresses. And I think it does make us unique, that we're just ready to be where we need to be. Joe Graves Once again, thinking about, you're trying to connect with people who aren't going to church are ready. And one of the barriers for people is the church building itself, sometimes they a bad experience, the feeling of a church building can be a hindrance. And so being in a neutral place, like a theater or an event center, like you take away that barrier. And anytime you take a way, you know, a barrier from perspective, can you know, person who can be connected to your community, if you're thinking of it, like a business, someone who might be a client or whatever, that's a that's a huge win. So there's like, there's definitely, you know, long term, could we exist in a traditional building? Yeah, like, traditional church building? Absolutely. But to start, it's really, there's a lot of benefits to being a different place, Stephanie Evans I think some of the things that you're describing also do apply to other businesses, when we think about what others can learn from what you're doing in being flexible, being mobile, going to where people are, and just kind of being available. Thinking outside that box, I think, is really smart. Stephanie Evans So what would you say, is the best advice that someone gave you, when you said, you were going to start this business, or this church? Joe Graves For me, it would be the process of networking. And so this is just as nothing unique to the church experience. But I actually, I actually think, you know, our Jesus, which is our model for ministry, He was probably one of the best networkers in the sense that He was, when you look at the stories, Jesus, who's in the community, He's in the meeting people, and He talks about sending His disciples out to do similar stuff, He talks about this person of peace. Joe Graves And so He would send people out to these villages. He said, If you go to a house, and you meet someone, so basically, going network, we'll use modern language. And you run across somebody, and there's a positive experience, then invest in that. And if you run into somebody who doesn't like what you're doing, He says, shake off the dust. And don't worry about it. It's like this sense of like, don't let that stop you from keep going. Joe Graves Because in the process of networking, and trying to meet people who want to be a part of what you're doing, the majority of the people you meet in any business probably don't want anything to do with it, right? And so you can't on the one side, let that negativity drag you down, because that can be really hard discouraging. But then on the other hand, you have to keep going and finding those people who are interested and invest in there. Joe Graves And so the process that we've tried to do meeting new people on a regular basis and following up with them, and trying to just be in relationship without necessarily any strings attached, especially as a church like we're not trying to do any particular sale, but just be in relationship with people. And then if there's room in the community for them, then that's great. That's probably the one of the best process of just meeting new people. Allysa Graves Yeah, mine was along the same lines of just invest in the relationships that take hold, I think is is one of the things that I heard early on that, that he's been going. It's not about a large number of people. But it's investing in those relationships that are important to those people and to us. Stephanie Evans Well, one of the things that we always say at the TriVillage Chamber is, you know, we provide the networking opportunities, but you know, the more you show up, the more you get to know people, and people want to do business with people that they know. So it really kind of pays off in lots of respects. Allysa Graves It's actually been really fun for the last year and a half being a part of the TriVillage Chamber and just getting to like walk around Grandview and in the tri-village area, and just being able to, like, Oh, I know them, I've seen them at a TriVillage Chamber meeting or we've done this event together. And regardless of who's using what business it's just really fun to know more people. And so we go to restaurants that are TriVillage Chamber members, and we know that we shop at stores then and you services from the TriVillage Chamber just because we know the people. Stephanie Evans This is a nice segue too, to kind of bring up the fact that Alyssa, you have been really helpful here to our TriVillage Chamber members in stepping up to kind of organize opportunities for our members to volunteer their time. So we appreciate the work that you're doing, and look forward to having more of that coming our way too. Stephanie Evans So what would you guys say has been your biggest challenge? Allysa Graves I have a lot of answers. Stephanie Evans Well, you guys have a lot. I mean, you're, you're doing a lot you have a young child. Joe Graves He's the biggest "challenge." Allysa Graves The hardest thing we've done in the last two years is raise a child. Stephanie Evans Yeah, so I would imagine time is a struggle to manage your time between places. Allysa Graves Especially as a startup, like having to invest so much time and energy into something that's new, so that it can be successful has been a huge challenge for us. And as we work together, we're both trying to put in all of that energy. And so other things in our life, you know, it is challenging to, to make room for, for all of that. Allysa Graves I think the other thing too, there is a lot of pressure to succeed. And there's not really a lot of room in our culture for failure, at whatever scale. And so when we've most weeks or days, when we feel like we're failing, there's not really room for that for the experimentation. And so we have to keep reminding ourselves that we're still new at this. And we're still trying to figure out what this looks like, in this neighborhood. And with these people. And so yeah, I think the pressure is, is probably one of the biggest challenges. Allysa Graves Because the relationships for me are easy. I love meeting new people, and getting to know people and hearing their story. And doing church is easy for me. Coming to worship and doing seven missions and small groups is easy. But it is a lot of the pressure to succeed without room for failure. Joe Graves And the fear of failure can be really overwhelming. And I think it's as I've talked to other people who do, who started other things like this is just a common feeling. But one of the challenges also that adds to that feeling is it's abstract. I was talking to somebody who just left his job at a university to run his own business, and he's been doing on the side now is doing a full time he's like, you know, when I worked at an institution, they just like, I went in, and they told me what I need to do that day. Now, I'm my own boss, and I'm like, I'm not always sure what I'm supposed to be doing when you're your own boss. Joe Graves And I think that's really true to a start up, unless you're doing a startup that already has like a particular model that's like, this is what you do. And you've, you've bought it from some of the or someone given to you like, this is what the startup business looks like, which churches could be that, but we decided to do church differently. So we're not following a particular model struggled to find a model similar what we're doing. So in that case, when you're doing something that's truly something new, or something that's like a, like a new thing, figuring it out is this nebulous, abstract thing that you're like, all the way down to the very practical thing of how are we spending our time? And where should we be spending our time? Joe Graves That's something we talked about on a regular basis, the simple like, it plays down to that most basic thing of like, Where's our 40, probably 60 hours a week going, and should it be going there, should it be going somewhere else? And there's some models that we can get some wisdom from, but ultimately, we have to kind of figure it out as we wrestle through this new thing that exists. Stephanie Evans I think that what you mentioned about failure, and kind of no room for failure. And learning how to persevere is really, really important. I think, I know, as a parent myself, you know, none of us want to see our kids fail, right? But, and we try to protect them from that. But at the same time, you're almost giving them a gift when they do fail, so that they learn how to pick themselves up and pull themselves back together and move on. Allysa Graves And we learn from our failures. You know, like, when something doesn't work, we can do it differently next time. I think it's hard to see something fail. So, you know, we've put so much energy and time into something, we want to see it succeed. And so when it does fail, there's kind of a little heartbreak. But then also, you know, what's the perception on the outside of that failing? And even though it was experimental, does everyone understand that? And how can we communicate that in a way that like, this is okay, like, we're just learning how to do this better next time. Joe Graves And there's ways to fail well. I think it's the book Lean Startup that talks a lot about failing quicker. So you put off the failure you put off, like the potential value, you do all this pre work. And then, and then if it doesn't work, you've wasted a year of your life. Whereas if you just put out little things, and you start right away, you can learn much quicker from the failure. And so that's hard, you know, we want to, we want to, we want to put more work in at the front end, and then hope it just works a year later, after all the work we put into, instead of experimenting along the way to figure out what works so that a year later, where we've got a working product or working community or whatever. But yeah, failing quicker is something it's a good thing to do. Stephanie Evans Right, because nobody really wants to fail. Never set out that I'm going to fail today. You don't want that to happen. Joe Graves That's something I learned in my art teacher in high school is one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned. He was like, you're not going to get the drawing right the first time. So I want you guys to make three mistakes before you settle in on on your final product. So his like command, usually, when we started a project was like, All right, now go make some mistakes. And we'll get to the doing the finished product tomorrow. And I was like, it was like, really freeing. Stephanie Evans It's kind of along the same lines, as practice makes perfect. You know, when you think about like, a piano lesson. And, you know, just that like, allowing yourself for understanding that I'm going to mess up. But with practice, I get a lot better. So kind of learning from your mistakes, your failures, helps you to stick with it, right? So you're not just gonna walk away. Stephanie Evans My next question is how do you define success? And how will you know when you're there? Allysa Graves I have to remind myself on almost a daily basis, that the success for our particular business is that lives are changed. People are growing in their personal lives in their faith. And so success isn't necessarily numbers or anything like that. Allysa Graves But it's the relationships that are being built and people are finding community, and are finding hope. And so I have to remember that on a regular basis, because sometimes I get wrapped up in so much of did this program work, or did this event happen and what went well. Allysa Graves But when I hear stories of people who meet someone at our church, or in one of our volunteer opportunities, and they are ongoing friends, when they didn't have any friends in their life, they were new to Columbus, they didn't know anybody. But now they have this group of people that they can call when they need something that success for me. So no matter what our numbers are, what we do, knowing that that people are building those relationships is what's success for me. Joe Graves Along those lines, Christianity in America is a big business. Let me just if you don't know that, it's a big business. Lot of money in the whole market of Christianity from churches, the books to music, it's a weird phenomenon. We live in that business. And so it's really easy, a lot of pressure, we talk about pressure and failure and stuff, there's a lot of pressure around numbers. And, and there's a lot of pressure to treat, you know, church like a business, which it is, but at the same time for our own soul, it's really becomes unhealthy to think of it in that regard. So then we have to go back to what is success? We have to answer that question. Joe Graves And we we have to constantly remind ourselves that, you know, my answer would be similar. Alyssa, it's what does it look like to invest in one person who at the end of that relationship or down the road, and that relationship is able to now invest in someone else, and that lives are changed to these one on one relationships, what we would call discipleship, but it's really just this relationships where people lives are changed. They're moving into community with each other, they're supporting one another, and they're increasing in their ability to trust God. And that changes their life because now they're doing things they never would have done, taking a risk they never would have taken because of their their willingness in their ability to to trust God and and love each other. So I guess it was Jesus who said, you know, two great commandments love God and love others. If we see an increasing amount of people, loving God and loving others in our community, then I guess that's, that's what we would say is success. Stephanie Evans I agree, relationships are so important, I think, to any organization, no matter what you're doing those those it's really what it boils down to. So I want to thank you guys and congratulate you year and a half in and keep doing the great work that you're doing. And thank you again for the work that you do for the TriVillage Chamber. We appreciate your leadership and the part that you play here.