Haven Collective

Stephanie Evans  
Today I'm talking with Melissa Blackburn, co-creator of Haven Collective, a co-working space in Upper Arlington. Welcome, Melissa, and thank you for joining us. 





Melissa Blackburn  
Thank you so much for having me. Very excited. 

Stephanie Evans  
I have to say, it's been so fun for me to follow you and Danielle, as you've built your business. An amazing work environment over there next door, as a matter of fact. But I remember meeting you the first time and walking through your building wearing a hard hat. 

Melissa Blackburn  
And we still have those pictures. We love them.

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, wearing a hard hat and listening to your vision. And I was just so excited for you. And it's been such a gift to me to be able to kind of watch you guys grow with it. So I appreciate that you reached out to us so early in your business so we could be kind of part of that. I feel like a proud aunt! 

Melissa Blackburn  
Well, you guys have been so supportive. And I just remember being really impressed with how involved the chamber was and how committed you are to our success. So you know, we owe a large Thank you, to you for that support too.

Stephanie Evans  
It's been fun. It's been really fun for us. So I'm thinking though, how long ago was that? 

Melissa Blackburn  
Oh, my goodness. So we came up with the idea in April of 2017, and then started taking on co workers in October of 2017. Just in our upstairs. 

Stephanie Evans  
That happened pretty quickly.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, I don't I don't tend to move slowly. And then we opened our full building and welcomed everyone we could starting in February of 2018. 

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, it did happen quickly. So it wasn't that long after I started here, right. I met you. 

Melissa Blackburn  
You were pretty new when we started.

Stephanie Evans  
So we'll circle back to some of that. But I want to start our talk today with same question that we ask everyone, which is, what did you want to be when you grew up when you were a kid? And then how does that play into what you're doing today?

Melissa Blackburn  
What a great question. When I grew up, I actually wanted to be an actress. I begged my parents to send me to acting classes and was lucky enough to get a lot of roles and theater through high school. I even went to theater school one day a week for high school. 

Melissa Blackburn  
And come time for college, my parents had very different ideas about what I should do. And we're not really supportive of me going to theater school for college. So I went the more traditional route. So it does play into what I do today. Because though I haven't thought about it till you just ask this question. Having that comfort and being able to talk to people and get on stage and not be afraid to be silly, or make a fool of myself, I think you need that when you're starting your own business, because it can be very nerve wracking to put yourself out there.

Stephanie Evans  
I would think so. And the confidence that you built by being on on stage in front of people.

Melissa Blackburn  
I think I just was from a young age, not afraid to fail. So I think the theater really helped me to build that confidence. 

Stephanie Evans  
Good for you and for your parents. We actually had a conversation in another podcast about failure. And, and that sometimes, you know, as parent we don't want our kids to fail, nobody wants to fail, but how to pick up those bootstraps and keep going when you do and being kind of fearless of failure.

Melissa Blackburn  
Resilience is very important. My husband and I talk about that a lot as we're raising two young children. We have a two year old and a four year old and we try to really focus on allowing them to fail and not fixing everything for them and helping them build that confidence in that resilience.  

Stephanie Evans  
Because, you know, no matter what you do, somewhere along the way, you're going to have a failure might be in varying degrees. It might be that you've earned the birthday cake, but you gotta figure what you're going to do, and be willing to make a birthday cake. Or run down to the store.

Stephanie Evans  
So tell us then about your business, Haven Collective.

Melissa Blackburn  
So Haven Collective is a co-working space at its core, we have everything from general memberships, where people can come in and work in our open spaces, all the way up to dedicated desks and offices. We've designed it so that entrepreneurs can come in at any stage of their journey and really have a plan that fits their budget and fits their needs. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Of course, everyone's there working and trying to get their best work done throughout the day. But we also like to provide other amenities that help them have some balance as well. So we do things like once a week, we have an hour of yoga. We also have a meditation once a week, 10 minutes. I think people think will meditation, but it's just, it's really quick. And it's nice to ground yourself for 10 minutes a week. And then, of course, the fun stuff like wine Wednesdays, you know, three o'clock we put out the wine and invite everyone to come and mingle. 

Melissa Blackburn  
We are also constantly doing events for our members. We're committed to helping them grow personally and professionally and get out of their shell with some networking, but fun networking so that they can learn how to pitch what they do, and meet other entrepreneurs.

Melissa Blackburn  
There's a lot going on at Haven. But really, we try and stress the collaboration in the community aspect and making sure everyone understands they have other entrepreneurs around them that are on the same journey that can help them. Not just because they can understand what they're going through, but could possibly help their business grow through collaboration.

Stephanie Evans  
Right. I remember very early on that was one of the things when I still had the hard hat on talked about in terms of the kinds of businesses that you would like to attract would be some that that could potentially help each other. So yeah, we've got this kind of business, but you need a CPA to help you get your taxes Well, that's someone just down the hall or employee who can write up your LLC is just down at the other end of the hall and, and kind of create a team within the walls of your building.

Melissa Blackburn  
Well said, That's exactly right. It's all about relationships. And so I think a lot of entrepreneurs come in having worked from home and being isolated, and just trying to figure it out on their own. And then they quickly learn not, you know, these co workers who they build trust with can actually be people that help them move forward and just give them more confidence in their business. So it's been a really beautiful thing to watch.

Stephanie Evans  
I love the the language that you guys use to describe Haven on your website. One of the things that you have is that your "An ecosystem for entrepreneurs, freelancers, and side hustlers." And hustlers a word that I see a lot in there. And so, so tell me about that sort of the, the brand that you guys are achieving with some of the language that you're using.

Melissa Blackburn  
Ours is interesting, because Danielle and I are so different. And rather than fight that, we decided to use it as part of our brand. You know, we joke that were the yin and the yang, but really where the hustle and the flow. We try and capitalize on our differences. You know, we say, the hustle and the flow, because our approaches are just very different. And we want to make sure that people can walk in and feel supported and have that warm family feel. But we also have a very strong business background, as both of us have MBAs where it's not just warm and fuzzy. 

Melissa Blackburn  
We do want you to understand the nuts and bolts of your marketing, your finances, your accounting, you need to know those things, but you also need to feel comfortable. So using that hustle and flow to kind of show people that yes, you can be comfortable, but you need to take your business seriously. We really just took that and ran with it. Even our conference rooms are named "Hustle" and "Flow." And if you met Danielle and I together, you would very quickly see how different we are.

Stephanie Evans  
It's a little extrovert introvert somewhere on on the scale. That balance.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah,

Stephanie Evans  
It serves the needs for lots of people then when they come in and see the different personalities. That you do have and a place for them.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, I think of course, the factor that we have in common is that we're both very supportive. I think we're just supportive in different ways. And so it has worked really well because it takes every kind of person to build a collective and knowing that somebody might like Danielle's approach, or my approach, it really benefits us because we have both to offer.

Stephanie Evans  
So do you guys serve as business consultants, yourselves? Since you both have business backgrounds and MBAs? Do you consult with the members 

Melissa Blackburn  
We do. We hadn't set out to do that when we started.

Stephanie Evans  
 I remember that being part of it necessarily, and it seems like you're qualified to.

Melissa Blackburn  
Well, thank you. We feel we are. We spent so much time working with members on very tactical things like marketing plans, and and helping with things like how do you structure a p&l? You know, we got to the point where we said, well, of course, we want to make this a member benefit. But beyond a few hours, here and there, what can we turn this into? 

Melissa Blackburn  
So we both do take on what we call like coaching clients here and there for people who need more in depth help. So Danielle focuses mainly on marketing and helping people understand who is their customer, what is the brand story that they want to tell. And then what does their content calendar look like with those factors. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Whereas I work more with entrepreneurs on Okay, now you know who your target audience is and who you're trying to go for. Let's talk about your pricing and your sales tactics, your sales funnel and CRM and let's let's really talk about how to get the revenue coming through the door.

Stephanie Evans  
Right. Okay. Yes. You both lend different specialties. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Yes.

Stephanie Evans  
Well, yeah, that's kind of awesome, then that's just sort of stemmed out of the business. Not necessarily part that you planned for it but evolving.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, it was definitely a complete organic thing. And it's a lot of fun.

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, good. Good. Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about advice. What would you say the best advice that you got from someone when you said, I'm going to start a business,

Melissa Blackburn  
it might be sad to say, I think a lot of people just were pretty cautious. 

Stephanie Evans  
Did they think you were crazy?

Melissa Blackburn  
It was such a change from what I had been doing. I'd worked in corporate America my entire career. Anyone who really knew me at my core, could have told you that I was going to own my own business at some point, I just have a very entrepreneurial spirit. 

Melissa Blackburn  
The best advice I got was, someone told me that I should understand that everyone's going through the same thing as I am. So in the days when I felt really alone, or really anxious, or really nervous about this, to really understand that everyone else feels that too, and I'm human, and to give myself some leeway to sit in that. Take a minute, figure it out. You're not alone. You know, find your people find your people you can talk to and find them fast, because it's a roller coaster. So and I really took that advice to heart.

Stephanie Evans  
And it sounds like with the members that you have at Haven, you've kind of created a space for them to do that, too, when they're struggling, or when they need advice. Or need to know somebody with a different specialty. You've created an environment so that they can find that.

Melissa Blackburn  
Absolutely, Danielle, and I have our own team that we look to that we consider our go to. But then we of course, try to be that for the members in our organization, and then encourage them to be that for each other. 

Stephanie Evans  
So what do you feel like has been your biggest challenge 

Melissa Blackburn  
The change from corporate has been interesting because going from a structure and a routine where I was accountable to a CEO to now being a co CEO. I am a very self-directed and driven person. But it's a whole other level of accountability when I mean, who's paying attention if you don't do it?  Nobody. 

Melissa Blackburn  
I always led a large team and I always felt like I was somewhat running my own like company in my own mind. But having a board that I reported. And a CEO that I reported to put a different level of pressure. And I don't say that word in a negative sense. Like, it just challenged me to get better all the time. Because I literally had a board I had to get in front of and impress every month, and now it's like, how do I continue to drive myself to do better and to grow professionally without someone else laying those challenges out for me. 

Stephanie Evans  
So it has to come from within a little bit. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Exactly. And just, you know, stepping back from the day to day and really seeing my weaknesses or blind spots on little areas where I'd want to just grow and get better.

Stephanie Evans  
How do you do with time management?

Melissa Blackburn  
Oh, time management. Yes, I'm big believer in time blocking. You know, Danielle and I work very closely on our calendars, making sure that we each have time for what we need to accomplish personally and professionally. So I'm lucky that my partner is understanding of my responsibilities as a mother as a wife, my own personal goals.

Stephanie Evans  
 You've got a lot going on.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, so time blocking is crucial. I know, my best hours are 8am to 1pm, that's when my brain works the best. So I really put blocks in place in those hours to do the harder tasks in my day, you know, making sure that I'm doing my marketing and sales follow ups and all my financial work in those hours, and blocking that off and giving myself permission to step away from running the space during those times to doing the deeper work. Working on the business instead of in it. 

Stephanie Evans  
Right, so not at the front desk.

Melissa Blackburn  
Right, right. We both love being there. We love seeing when people walk in and greeting them and understanding how their days going. But sometimes you have to tuck yourself away and get some other stuff done.

Stephanie Evans  
I find that to you. Like, sometimes I have to close out my email so that I'm not seeing a new email pop up every time I'm trying to get something else done. You can we really have to kind of compartmentalize and be able to focus.

Melissa Blackburn  
And I find that the time blocking helps too, because all those little tasks add up. And if you give yourself permission to say, well, that's a financial matter. And I deal with those Mondays from you know, 11am to 1pm, you just put it for that time.

Stephanie Evans  
You're structuring it that way. So you have your, your time blocks are specific topics. Finances on this day, at this time, and, you know, marketing at this day on this time.

Melissa Blackburn  
Yeah, I just find that like, if you're tackling them all at once, it helps you to see like, bigger picture. What our processes and procedures that you can be putting in place to be more efficient. And that just goes back to my operations background, I think I'm always trying to look for efficiencies in process. So that's just worked well for me. 

Stephanie Evans  
That's great advice. I have to try that.

Stephanie Evans  
So when you do have a challenge come up. What helps you persevere? What keeps you going? 

Melissa Blackburn  
So I'm a person of extreme faith. I pray lot. I am usually quick to make a decision. And if I can't be decisive in the moment, I give myself the space to sit back and think and pray on it and figure it out. And so far, so good. That that works for me. 

Melissa Blackburn  
You know, I think that most of my decisions or challenges can be solved like very quickly. But I find that if I don't really know what to do in the moment, giving myself just a little bit of space to say, you know what, I'm not going to decide on this until tomorrow, even so far as like, tomorrow night, not even to like, worry about it. 

Melissa Blackburn  
And oftentimes, subconsciously, the answer will come to me. I'll be driving or at the gym or something. And it's like, oh, there's the answer right in front of me. But rather, you know, I think my younger self would have tried to like out think it and just solve it right away, and it would eat at me. Whereas now it's like, well, if the answer isn't clear up front, I probably just need to like, step back for a minute. And typically, it just clears itself up.

Stephanie Evans  
Yeah, I think my nature is that I'm a deliberater or so I naturally take that time to think about things. But then once I've reached that point, where it's like, okay, I thought about this, and then, and then it comes to me, it's like, Okay, and then I make my decision really quickly. Because I feel like I've taken so much time to process. 

Melissa Blackburn  
I used to do like, the whole pro and con list thing. And, like, be so practical about it. But I just find like, if I can just breathe and just ask for clarity, just tends to work for me.

Stephanie Evans  
So if you had to do things over again, is there anything you do differently?

Melissa Blackburn  
I would have bought a bigger space.

Melissa Blackburn  
I knew it was going to be awesome. But it is just so far exceeded where we ever thought it could be. And I just wish I could take in more people. I wish I could serve a larger audience. And I just am so grateful that we're at a point where we're talking about how we make an even bigger impact. Because now this little thing that we thought would be cool has taken off, and we know we can do more. 

Stephanie Evans  
So I was just there last week. And hopped in, and it was it was hustling. there were a lot of people around. I didn't go over to the library, the quiet side. But upstairs are all your offices, are they all leased up?

Melissa Blackburn  
Yep, every office is full. We have one dedicated desk coming up, that'll be available. We're still of course accepting members. So we have room I don't want people to be turned away. Like we definitely have room in the shared space and and room in our community to welcome different thought leaders and, you know, different people from different backgrounds. So we're just excited to see how we can diversify our community. 

Stephanie Evans  
So when you like you just said, a desk is going to be opening up or let's say an office opens up. I know that your business is still young, but when those desks or those spaces open up, what's that person's next move? Are they going to a storefront? Are they going to a bigger office? I mean, are you sort of an incubator in a way? 

Melissa Blackburn  
I think kind of similar to our story. A lot of people come to us when they're just getting started. And thinking, like, I have a really cool idea. And then things go way better than they thought. And typically, they're moving into an office, which is why our offices like filled up so fast, or just just stories are totally different. 

Melissa Blackburn  
We had one woman who was working from home, feeling very isolated, decided to get a desk so that she could have a community around her. And I think when she had more structure in her day, was able to think like, what's going to make me happy in life and decided she wanted to be in Colorado, she wanted to be around the mountains. And so she was able to take her job and moved Colorado. And we still keep in touch with her, and she's still part of our community via our private Facebook. But, you know, that's just one story. 

Melissa Blackburn  
I think being part of the community, people are so encouraged, whether that means Yeah, I'm going to take a trip across the country, or I'm going to move up to an office or, you know, I'm ready to take this gig even bigger and get a storefront.

Stephanie Evans  
So it's a confidence builder, for whatever that next step is. Ok. So my last question is about success. And how would you define success? And, and how do you know when you're there?

Melissa Blackburn  
Hmm. I've been thinking about that one a lot lately. Because I think you really do have to decide what success looks like to you. You know, if you'd asked me this question 10 years ago, I probably would have associated it with having a big paycheck, that sort of thing. 

Melissa Blackburn  
But it just looks so different now.

Melissa Blackburn  
To me, being able to call the shots in my own life is success in a nutshell. Not being beholden to anyone else, being able to take time off and be present with my children, take time and be with my husband, live life, basically, on my terms.

Melissa Blackburn  
It's just so freeing. It just feels really good. And I don't think that I would trade that for the big fat paycheck. 

Melissa Blackburn  
As life is a little easier in some levels and that way, but there's a lot more pressure that comes with that too. And I think so many people that I talked to, who make the leap from corporate have that "aha moment" as well. Like, wait a minute, I was so scared about losing the money, you know, so scared. Well, what would life would look like, and losing that financial freedom. 

Melissa Blackburn  
But you find you need a lot less, you spend a lot less and different things become important to you. And I just sleep a lot better at night now. And so I think just continuing to remind myself on the hard days that like, I just don't answer to any anyone. And if I needed to leave right now and go pick up my kids from school, I can do that. And it's just to me, that's huge. 

Stephanie Evans  
Good for you. Congratulations. Great way to wrap up.  How do we find you on your social media or website?

Melissa Blackburn  
You can find us on our website at www.HavenColumbus. com. We do communicate with our audience very frequently through Facebook @havencollective, and through Instagram,@havencollective as well. So always excited to see a new follower and get you engaged in the conversation. So we'd love to see more people from the TriVillage Chamber, people from Upper Arlington, following along and getting to the conversation with us.

Stephanie Evans  
Great. Thank you so much. 

Melissa Blackburn  
Thank you.

Central City Church

Stephanie Evans Today we're talking with Allyssa and Joe Graves, of Central City Church in Grandview Heights. Welcome to you guys and thanks for joining us today. Allysa Graves Yeah, thanks for having us. Stephanie Evans So starting a church is a little different than starting a business. But I would imagine that there are many aspects of it that you have to treat as a business in order to be successful. So those are the things I'd like to talk to you about today. Running a church as a business and how you guys got started with Central City Church. Stephanie Evans So to kick us off, we always ask the same question of everyone. And that is, what did you want to be when you're a child? And how does that tie into where you are today? Allysa Graves Yes. So when I was growing up, I, I think I just wanted to save the world. So I remember wanting to be a marine biologist, because I wanted to say all the animals and wanting to be a missionary because I want to save all the kids around the world. And I want to be a teacher because I want to save all the high schoolers that we're getting trouble. And so I just wanted to save the world. And now I am none of those. But I am a pastor. So you know, it works because I get to help people where they're at, and bring light into a neighborhood or into people's life. Joe Graves I would say that when I was, especially in high school, I was really kind of trying to wrestle, did I do I want to go into ministry? And specifically do I want to be a missionary. So I mean, we have that in common. There's something like romantic I think, in our Christian world at the time about being a missionary, and the adventure and sacrifice that went with that. So I think there's probably a lot of people who grew up in similar environments that felt that way. Then also kind of want to do something creative. I was really into art really enjoyed creativity. So I really wrestled a lot with, you know, should I go into art? Or should I go into ministry of some sort? And now I think as a pastor of a church, and especially a new church start, we got to do a lot both so really have fun doing the ministry, being a pastor, but then being able to do some of the creative stuff from marketing to other types of creative endeavors. Stephanie Evans So it does kind of come full circle and bring your passions all together. Allysa Graves Which is the, the good thing about being able to start your own, whatever, because we get to kind of shape and form how and what that looks like. Joe Graves We get to develop the culture and, and also our roles in working together as co pastors, we get to develop those roles, but then also just like, the roles of what we do as a church and and the work we get to accomplish and what it looks like. Stephanie Evans So one of the things on your website says that you're doing church differently. So can you tell us about that? What does that mean? Joe Graves This actually goes back to like, starting a business. We've really tried to figure out as a church who we are, we've been a community now for a year. And so part of that it's like the classic branding, marketing conversation that any businesses, especially a new business, you have clarity of vision, you want to make sure you can tell people exactly who you are. Joe Graves So when we started, we had a particular vision, and now we've been doing it for a year, we've been asking the question, why did the people who come, what do they love about it? And I think there's something that makes us unique, and I think some of those things are personality. We embrace mystery and questions. So when it comes to like, a faith perspective, you know, like, our sermons typically aren't the answer to a question there more often ending with a question. And so that's one of things, it makes us different. And actually, a lot of people come to our church, because they're like, we feel like, there's room for conversation, we feel like you're not telling us, we have to believe a certain thing, or we get kicked out. So we try to create that space for mystery. Joe Graves And, and for creativity. That's probably another thing that makes us different. But holding things, intention would be probably the thing that makes us the most different and being welcoming to people, regardless of where they're at in life, whether they have faith at all, those are probably some things that make us different. And another thing is, we tried to be intentional about living the church out in mission. So one of the things we say is we don't try to outsource our mission. So we are church in that's engaged in doing the hard work of ministry, especially with the vulnerable and creating space for people to volunteer and give back to that. And I think in some ways that makes us different as well. Allysa Graves We are doing church different than a lot of people have experienced previously. We want to be about relationships with each other, and not not being people that have it all together, but recognizing who we are, and being vulnerable in that, and being a place where no matter who you are, what you've done, where you're going, like you can be here, and we will be there on that journey with you. Joe Graves Are you contemporary, or traditional? Are you conservative or progressive? And, and a lot of those labels don't work well for us. Allysa Graves Because we're all of that. Stephanie Evans Would you say that is part of your business model? That was the plan to kind of come in and be different? intentionally? Allysa Graves Yes, yeah, we've had a lot of experience. And I think one of the reasons why we wanted to start something new is because we weren't seeing church done the way that we would like to be a part of a church. And so yeah, it was our business model to be different, to be something that people who have had a negative experience with church could come and be welcome and, and find what they're looking for in that. And so it kind of is, we want to be different. But we want to be what we think the church is supposed to be. And so it's not necessarily that we want to be different, just for the sake of being different. But we want to be different, because we feel like the churches, something is missing in churches. Joe Graves A very sincere, genuine place for like, this is what the church could be. And we really push that. From a business marketing standpoint, you can still approach the conversation come to a similar conclusion, say, look at market research. The vast majority of people who are unchurched were churched at one time, they were a part of a church community, and maybe even associate with the church community, even if they don't attend. Joe Graves So now, now, you're saying like the majority of people who might come to our church used to go to church, which means they stopped going, and as you get to know, the people who stopped going, you're hearing stories. Some people stop going because of in different reasons, you know, neutral reasons or stop going, got bored. But a lot of people were meeting at negative experiences with church, a lot of people have been really hurt by church. So some of the stuff we're trying to do different in the way we approach it is in response to the fact that Yeah, so if people are like, I love church, and I'm all about church and churches, the best thing in the world, we don't attract a lot of those people, you know, and that's one thing it probably makes us different as well. We're really connecting with people who've been have had a negative experience. Stephanie Evans One of the things that struck me early on because I met you guys how long ago? Allysa Graves A year and a half. Stephanie Evans So you came to us pretty early on or came to the TriVillage Chamber pretty on early on when you when you first moved into Grandview. Your mobile unit, you carry a trailer. Allysa Graves Church in a Box. Stephanie Evans So you started out at the Grandview Theater, and now you're over at the CA Backspace, right. So but you you still have your trailer and you bring things with you so that you can kind of go wherever you need to go. Yeah, and I think that's kind of a unique aspect as well. Allysa Graves It is unique, it's hard, because we people ask us where we're located. And we tell them that we have like, five addresses. So at any given moment, we might be in a different location. We have our church at CA Backspace, where we bring the trailer and we set up all of our kids space, and our coffee, and our band and everything. And then we have office space at a couple different churches that we're partnering with. And we have a P.O. box. And so we have all these different addresses. And I think it does make us unique, that we're just ready to be where we need to be. Joe Graves Once again, thinking about, you're trying to connect with people who aren't going to church are ready. And one of the barriers for people is the church building itself, sometimes they a bad experience, the feeling of a church building can be a hindrance. And so being in a neutral place, like a theater or an event center, like you take away that barrier. And anytime you take a way, you know, a barrier from perspective, can you know, person who can be connected to your community, if you're thinking of it, like a business, someone who might be a client or whatever, that's a that's a huge win. So there's like, there's definitely, you know, long term, could we exist in a traditional building? Yeah, like, traditional church building? Absolutely. But to start, it's really, there's a lot of benefits to being a different place, Stephanie Evans I think some of the things that you're describing also do apply to other businesses, when we think about what others can learn from what you're doing in being flexible, being mobile, going to where people are, and just kind of being available. Thinking outside that box, I think, is really smart. Stephanie Evans So what would you say, is the best advice that someone gave you, when you said, you were going to start this business, or this church? Joe Graves For me, it would be the process of networking. And so this is just as nothing unique to the church experience. But I actually, I actually think, you know, our Jesus, which is our model for ministry, He was probably one of the best networkers in the sense that He was, when you look at the stories, Jesus, who's in the community, He's in the meeting people, and He talks about sending His disciples out to do similar stuff, He talks about this person of peace. Joe Graves And so He would send people out to these villages. He said, If you go to a house, and you meet someone, so basically, going network, we'll use modern language. And you run across somebody, and there's a positive experience, then invest in that. And if you run into somebody who doesn't like what you're doing, He says, shake off the dust. And don't worry about it. It's like this sense of like, don't let that stop you from keep going. Joe Graves Because in the process of networking, and trying to meet people who want to be a part of what you're doing, the majority of the people you meet in any business probably don't want anything to do with it, right? And so you can't on the one side, let that negativity drag you down, because that can be really hard discouraging. But then on the other hand, you have to keep going and finding those people who are interested and invest in there. Joe Graves And so the process that we've tried to do meeting new people on a regular basis and following up with them, and trying to just be in relationship without necessarily any strings attached, especially as a church like we're not trying to do any particular sale, but just be in relationship with people. And then if there's room in the community for them, then that's great. That's probably the one of the best process of just meeting new people. Allysa Graves Yeah, mine was along the same lines of just invest in the relationships that take hold, I think is is one of the things that I heard early on that, that he's been going. It's not about a large number of people. But it's investing in those relationships that are important to those people and to us. Stephanie Evans Well, one of the things that we always say at the TriVillage Chamber is, you know, we provide the networking opportunities, but you know, the more you show up, the more you get to know people, and people want to do business with people that they know. So it really kind of pays off in lots of respects. Allysa Graves It's actually been really fun for the last year and a half being a part of the TriVillage Chamber and just getting to like walk around Grandview and in the tri-village area, and just being able to, like, Oh, I know them, I've seen them at a TriVillage Chamber meeting or we've done this event together. And regardless of who's using what business it's just really fun to know more people. And so we go to restaurants that are TriVillage Chamber members, and we know that we shop at stores then and you services from the TriVillage Chamber just because we know the people. Stephanie Evans This is a nice segue too, to kind of bring up the fact that Alyssa, you have been really helpful here to our TriVillage Chamber members in stepping up to kind of organize opportunities for our members to volunteer their time. So we appreciate the work that you're doing, and look forward to having more of that coming our way too. Stephanie Evans So what would you guys say has been your biggest challenge? Allysa Graves I have a lot of answers. Stephanie Evans Well, you guys have a lot. I mean, you're, you're doing a lot you have a young child. Joe Graves He's the biggest "challenge." Allysa Graves The hardest thing we've done in the last two years is raise a child. Stephanie Evans Yeah, so I would imagine time is a struggle to manage your time between places. Allysa Graves Especially as a startup, like having to invest so much time and energy into something that's new, so that it can be successful has been a huge challenge for us. And as we work together, we're both trying to put in all of that energy. And so other things in our life, you know, it is challenging to, to make room for, for all of that. Allysa Graves I think the other thing too, there is a lot of pressure to succeed. And there's not really a lot of room in our culture for failure, at whatever scale. And so when we've most weeks or days, when we feel like we're failing, there's not really room for that for the experimentation. And so we have to keep reminding ourselves that we're still new at this. And we're still trying to figure out what this looks like, in this neighborhood. And with these people. And so yeah, I think the pressure is, is probably one of the biggest challenges. Allysa Graves Because the relationships for me are easy. I love meeting new people, and getting to know people and hearing their story. And doing church is easy for me. Coming to worship and doing seven missions and small groups is easy. But it is a lot of the pressure to succeed without room for failure. Joe Graves And the fear of failure can be really overwhelming. And I think it's as I've talked to other people who do, who started other things like this is just a common feeling. But one of the challenges also that adds to that feeling is it's abstract. I was talking to somebody who just left his job at a university to run his own business, and he's been doing on the side now is doing a full time he's like, you know, when I worked at an institution, they just like, I went in, and they told me what I need to do that day. Now, I'm my own boss, and I'm like, I'm not always sure what I'm supposed to be doing when you're your own boss. Joe Graves And I think that's really true to a start up, unless you're doing a startup that already has like a particular model that's like, this is what you do. And you've, you've bought it from some of the or someone given to you like, this is what the startup business looks like, which churches could be that, but we decided to do church differently. So we're not following a particular model struggled to find a model similar what we're doing. So in that case, when you're doing something that's truly something new, or something that's like a, like a new thing, figuring it out is this nebulous, abstract thing that you're like, all the way down to the very practical thing of how are we spending our time? And where should we be spending our time? Joe Graves That's something we talked about on a regular basis, the simple like, it plays down to that most basic thing of like, Where's our 40, probably 60 hours a week going, and should it be going there, should it be going somewhere else? And there's some models that we can get some wisdom from, but ultimately, we have to kind of figure it out as we wrestle through this new thing that exists. Stephanie Evans I think that what you mentioned about failure, and kind of no room for failure. And learning how to persevere is really, really important. I think, I know, as a parent myself, you know, none of us want to see our kids fail, right? But, and we try to protect them from that. But at the same time, you're almost giving them a gift when they do fail, so that they learn how to pick themselves up and pull themselves back together and move on. Allysa Graves And we learn from our failures. You know, like, when something doesn't work, we can do it differently next time. I think it's hard to see something fail. So, you know, we've put so much energy and time into something, we want to see it succeed. And so when it does fail, there's kind of a little heartbreak. But then also, you know, what's the perception on the outside of that failing? And even though it was experimental, does everyone understand that? And how can we communicate that in a way that like, this is okay, like, we're just learning how to do this better next time. Joe Graves And there's ways to fail well. I think it's the book Lean Startup that talks a lot about failing quicker. So you put off the failure you put off, like the potential value, you do all this pre work. And then, and then if it doesn't work, you've wasted a year of your life. Whereas if you just put out little things, and you start right away, you can learn much quicker from the failure. And so that's hard, you know, we want to, we want to, we want to put more work in at the front end, and then hope it just works a year later, after all the work we put into, instead of experimenting along the way to figure out what works so that a year later, where we've got a working product or working community or whatever. But yeah, failing quicker is something it's a good thing to do. Stephanie Evans Right, because nobody really wants to fail. Never set out that I'm going to fail today. You don't want that to happen. Joe Graves That's something I learned in my art teacher in high school is one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned. He was like, you're not going to get the drawing right the first time. So I want you guys to make three mistakes before you settle in on on your final product. So his like command, usually, when we started a project was like, All right, now go make some mistakes. And we'll get to the doing the finished product tomorrow. And I was like, it was like, really freeing. Stephanie Evans It's kind of along the same lines, as practice makes perfect. You know, when you think about like, a piano lesson. And, you know, just that like, allowing yourself for understanding that I'm going to mess up. But with practice, I get a lot better. So kind of learning from your mistakes, your failures, helps you to stick with it, right? So you're not just gonna walk away. Stephanie Evans My next question is how do you define success? And how will you know when you're there? Allysa Graves I have to remind myself on almost a daily basis, that the success for our particular business is that lives are changed. People are growing in their personal lives in their faith. And so success isn't necessarily numbers or anything like that. Allysa Graves But it's the relationships that are being built and people are finding community, and are finding hope. And so I have to remember that on a regular basis, because sometimes I get wrapped up in so much of did this program work, or did this event happen and what went well. Allysa Graves But when I hear stories of people who meet someone at our church, or in one of our volunteer opportunities, and they are ongoing friends, when they didn't have any friends in their life, they were new to Columbus, they didn't know anybody. But now they have this group of people that they can call when they need something that success for me. So no matter what our numbers are, what we do, knowing that that people are building those relationships is what's success for me. Joe Graves Along those lines, Christianity in America is a big business. Let me just if you don't know that, it's a big business. Lot of money in the whole market of Christianity from churches, the books to music, it's a weird phenomenon. We live in that business. And so it's really easy, a lot of pressure, we talk about pressure and failure and stuff, there's a lot of pressure around numbers. And, and there's a lot of pressure to treat, you know, church like a business, which it is, but at the same time for our own soul, it's really becomes unhealthy to think of it in that regard. So then we have to go back to what is success? We have to answer that question. Joe Graves And we we have to constantly remind ourselves that, you know, my answer would be similar. Alyssa, it's what does it look like to invest in one person who at the end of that relationship or down the road, and that relationship is able to now invest in someone else, and that lives are changed to these one on one relationships, what we would call discipleship, but it's really just this relationships where people lives are changed. They're moving into community with each other, they're supporting one another, and they're increasing in their ability to trust God. And that changes their life because now they're doing things they never would have done, taking a risk they never would have taken because of their their willingness in their ability to to trust God and and love each other. So I guess it was Jesus who said, you know, two great commandments love God and love others. If we see an increasing amount of people, loving God and loving others in our community, then I guess that's, that's what we would say is success. Stephanie Evans I agree, relationships are so important, I think, to any organization, no matter what you're doing those those it's really what it boils down to. So I want to thank you guys and congratulate you year and a half in and keep doing the great work that you're doing. And thank you again for the work that you do for the TriVillage Chamber. We appreciate your leadership and the part that you play here.

Versa Coworking

Business Inspires welcomes Versa Coworking to this episode.  Brought to you by The Village Of Marble Cliff

Business Inspires Podcast welcomes Versa Coworking

: Hi this is Michelle Wilson I'm the executive director of the TriVillage Chamber Partnership. And this morning we are speaking with April Zimmerman Katz who is the president of Zimmerman Companies and the founder of Versa. And we're actually sitting in Versa at 1201 Dublin Road. So thank you for joining me today.

: Thank you for having me.

: This is exciting. We've done a few podcasts here and the space works really beautifully so glad to finally have you and find out what you what your inspirations were to have this space and start this space. But we always try to start this podcast off with. What did you want to be when you were young what did you want to grow up to?

: Oh wow OK I wasn't expecting that question!

: You are from Columbus right?

: I am from Columbus, right. I come from a long line of entrepreneurs and we've been in Columbus as far back as my great great grandparents. As far as I'm aware of. So we've been in business in the city for a long time. I think at one point I thought I wanted to be a marine biologist. But then it occurred to me that I really did not like to be in the ocean. So I like to look at it. But I like to be in it so that wasn't going to work out for me.

: And then I went towards art. So I've always had an artistic streak. I was an art major in college. Studio art major in college. And these days my artistic tendencies are manifesting themselves in space.

: Yes this place is beautiful and Oliver tells us that you did everything here. Every bit of decorating and interior design was all inspired you.

: Well I won't take credit for all of it. I have a great team. But I do have a specific aesthetic that I like and I like found objects. I like to blend different kinds of things so well our architectural team brought in great architectural elements so the spokes that hang from the ceiling and those kinds of details that are really unique in the space. And then we had some people who helped with color schemes. But yes I was part of all of that have very strong opinions about what I want to see and how I want to see it.

: And I go as far as I can with the design professionals and then I like to fill in the rest so I like to shop at flea markets. I like found objects and I spend a lot of time filling in all of the gaps with that. And I think it gives the space personality.

: Oh it does and I love how well this is a very large space but there's so many nooks and crannies that have their own personality. But it all flows so beautifully together. And I love that I cannot do that to save my life. I wish I could my house as well, I will talk about my house, but it's really beautiful here. And I think everybody can find a space that's very comfortable for them.

: Thank you. That's not our goal.

: Well you did a great job. And. So having the artistic background and major certainly plays into what you're doing today. So even at a young age you kind of knew what you liked and wanted to do and you turned that into a career.

: Yes. I needed to be creating something. And I love color and texture and design. And I think that's it adds richness to the fabric of our lives.

: Absolutely. Good for you. Before Versa you kind of worked hand in hand with your husband Kyle. Is that true?

: Well yes and no. We worked together on a project before we started Versa. So I have been running a family business the third generation apart in multifamily.

: And that Zimmerman Companies?

: Yes. So we have had properties throughout Columbus for four decades. More than that now I actually think the's 1970's. So we're getting closer to five decades. And I came to work inside the apartment business in 1999. I was newly single and had three kids and I needed a job. And so I went to work renting apartments and I loved every minute of it.

: What did you love about that?

: What I loved was getting to meet new people all the time. I really enjoy that. I get a lot of energy from other people. These were people who were making big decisions about how they were going to spend their money on the most expensive part of their budget. It doesn't matter what level of apartment that is that holds true whether it's a 500 dollar apartment or fifteen hundred dollar apartment. There's that expectation that people have of being treated well and having a friendly face. And I loved it. So I worked my way up through the ranks of the apartment business. And now I am in part I'm a partnership with my father and he also owns Olympic Indoor Tennis. So that falls now under that umbrella of the companies that we own and manage.

: That's part of Columbus fiber right?

: Yes. So originally my great grandfather had a Olympic swim the Olympic Swim Club. And my family owned that through various generations until 2014 as a pool. And then I purchased the property in 2014 and built The Deco which is a mixed use project. Kyle helped me build that. He is a developer. He's particularly good at that. And so he helped my father and I build The Deco over on the pool property. The tennis property is still there, next door and getting ready to open for forty-third season in September 2018. So yes that was a very exciting opportunity for Kyle and I to work together.

: So I did a lot of the design work. Once again I think at times the architects were probably tired of seeing me because I had a lot of opinions about how I wanted it to look. And we had a great time working on that project together. And so we sort of rolled into this project from that one.

: There was an article earlier this year that says that Kyle was quoted saying "I find and build it, she fills it and runs it." That kind of simplifies a lot of work I'm sure.

: It does.

: It's a pretty neat way to sum up what you both do and how you compliment each other.

: Yeah we figured out that we have different superpowers and yeah it's better to not step on one another's toes in those situations. We've found it to work so far. We're having a lot of fun.

: And clearly having fun is key when you're talking working with your spouse. We interviewed Steve Weaver a few months back who owns The Candle Labs, and he and his wife started The Candle Labs and they've really grown the business and he says if it were up to him he'd have a thousand stores all over the place and if it were up to her she'd have one that's run just perfectly. And I love that and I love that they figured it out and they have a handful of stores and they're very deliberate about what they do and what they each bring to the table. So I think it has to be finding a balance of what your superpowers are and and having fun because that could be disastrous otherwise.

: When you're in business together your day never ends. So you are at work all day long. And then you're home. And he and I do not see each other over the course of the day. He has Katz Development and he's over at The Buggy Works and I am here in this building. And so we don't really lay eyes on each other until the end of the day. Like most couples. And then we have lots of things to talk about.

: So, I did have someone ask us at one point "How do your children feel? What is the talk around the dinner table sound like at your house?".

: Right. That is interesting.

: We're always talking about business or new opportunities or whatever. Sometimes the girls put a stop to that. "No business tonight!".

: But I think it can be cool that when there's exciting things happening or successes you really deeply understand what those successes mean and what was behind them so you can share that experience each other.

: So let's talk about Versa. So this is a very large space. I think it's larger than what's around.

Yes.

: Is that true?

: Yes.

: OK.

: At the moment.

: At the moment right. Because this as I as I was saying this industry has just really taken off in the past five years in its projections on growth are just crazy. But this is a very large space. And what attracted you to the larger space and was it a concern? Was it just the challenge of it or all of the above?

: So I had this wild idea. I'd heard a little bit about coworking. I was interested in what it was because I was already in the business of essentially renting space. And I was just hearing just the beginnings of this. I convinced my husband to go to a conference with me and it was very interesting. It was the spaces that people were talking about at that conference were anywhere from three to maybe eight thousand square feet. Some people were just on the verge of the ten to fifteen thousand square feet when we were there. Moving very very quickly. So Kyle is well versed in figuring out economies of scale. And when you put all of that infrastructure into space, 5000 square feet, it's really hard to make that work. So pretty quickly we abandoned the idea of five thousand square feet. We were looking at 15000 square feet. And then we stumbled upon this building.

: We didn't stumble. We were brought to this building, very intentionally, by our wonderful brokers and we just thought that it was just an amazing building.

: I mean it has water views. There was so much natural light in the building. And so we thought well we were just going to make the ground floor and the first floor coworking to begin with. And that would have been about 18000 square feet on the first floor and another 12 down here on the ground level. But as we were moving ahead over the course of building it out, spaces were going from 15000 to 20000. It was a process of many many many months to lay all of this out and get the business up and running. And also a new user was coming in to the arena and that was an enterprise user. So whole companies of size that wanted to be able to come in and get right to work and not have to worry about working with a broker, working with a contractor, working with an architect building out their space.

: Entrepreneurs, companies who are in existence with multiple employees.

: And so at that point I decided to build out the second floor and make it part of the space. And I know that Kyle thought I was losing my mind because it brought us to 37000 square feet in the building for Versa. And it was far exceeded any of the competition. With that it's definitely slower to get members. When you're talking about that many square feet. We did manage to get in a whole company on the second floor. Singularity University is here. They moved in August 2018 and we're super excited to have them..

: They have all of the second floor?

: Yes.

: Because when we toured it a few months ago it wasn't quite completed. It was almost there and it was really just waiting for that enterprise.

: So they came in and made the decision relatively quickly which is really the essence of what coworking allows companies to do. It allows them to move fast and to get down to business quickly.

: So how do you think that's affected real estate and people signing five, 10 year leases? And I don't mean that just here, I mean the flex space, coworking space availability?

: Well you know it's scary when you're a growing company to sign a long term lease. When you've been in business for a long time and you've got lots of credit and financials to back up those positions and your growth is steady and you know where you're headed, then that makes sense. And we do see a lot of people who come in. Not as many now. But when we first opened, people really curious about what we were doing here, but just didn't understand what we were doing here. the sort of "Why would I do this when I can do that?".

: So there's been a huge learning curve in Columbus when we started. There was a learning curve for the brokers. There was a learning curve for landlords. There is a learning curve for architects in designing the spaces. And then of course the learning curve for the end user. So we had a lot to battle.

: One of the things though is that there have been some accounting changes where long term leases now have to be accounted for on the balance sheet. That can really be devastating for a small company. So if a small enterprise were to sign a five year lease, they have to put the entire five year lease on their balance sheet as a liability like a mortgage would be.

: And if they have a five year option on it they have to put that on it as well. So all of a sudden you have a tremendous liability against potentially a growing company. Where you may or may not know how fast you're going to grow, or if you're going to grow. And this can make a big difference in your ability to raise money. There are lots of different things. I'm not an accountant but I have researched this a lot because it makes a difference and we found that it makes a difference to the people who are here.

: We have a little bit more of a mature membership here. So people who have been in business for a little while. Not long, but long enough to know the direction that they really want to head and maybe have had some kind of space before. And are really ready to hit the ground but also to have a professional face on what they're trying to accomplish.

: People can walk in this building and have conference space and have had the things that they would have in their own long term lease space. So is this month to month?

: It can be. We have different membership levels and some of them can be month to month. So coworking can be month to month. We have what we call community membership which allows an individual or a company who has their own space, but at times needs to access spaces like this or conference room space. Somebody who really likes to perhaps work from home, but they have to meet clients and they can't do it at the dining room table, Panera or Starbucks. It's not appropriate for what they're doing. And so we have a community membership that allows those users to come in and have member pricing on all of our open spaces. And then also join us for all the fun stuff we do.

: So let's talk about some of the fun stuff. I mean I think that's that's a lot of the appeal. Besides not having a long term lease, but having a lot of great amenities at somebody's disposal for a great price every month that somebody can afford.

: So what are some of those amenities that people can look forward to a Versa?

: Well I like to start off with really what we talked about before which was design which makes a difference. Everybody who is starting a business is good at exactly what they're doing great. That doesn't mean that they're good at all of the other things that need to be done. You may be great at tech but terrible at H.R. Every entrepreneur in the world, every growing business, understands this point.

: A lot of people want a great space and great design. They can't afford it or they don't know how to do it. And so we get a lot of feedback just as people walk right through the doors and say "Wow the space is really beautiful and I really love the way it feels." We have heard that it feels much different from any of the other competitors. That has a lot more eclectic feel to it. So there's that that they got which already has a sort of a feel to it that is more professional and more beautiful than they may be able to afford or achieve on their own. We have a cafe of course which is right in the front and that includes drinks and snacks and lots and lots of coffee. We get all of our coffee from Crimson Cup. And it's a great hub for people to sort of come and go throughout their day. and great place to meet, say hello in the morning to each other, other entrepreneurs that are here.

: Because this does give these enterprise companies an opportunity to interact with other businesses and other minds. And connect on different levels.

: We do have happy hour on Thursday nights because why not?

: Because why not!

: Often we have it out on the balcony in the back where we can look over the water. It's also one of the amenities that we have. We have outdoor space here with great views and people really take advantage of it. We've really seen that of course over the summer months where people take their laptop and go sit under an umbrella on a beautiful day and get to spend their day working in that kind of an atmosphere. The other amenities that we have here includes lots of different conference spaces. So we have everything from four person spaces to 12 to 16 to a conversation room which can hold 50 comfortably. And then we have the studios. We have two studios on the lower level that are classroom style, and can hold up to 70 people in those spaces. So we have lots of different spaces available for people for whatever they might need.

: And is that available to nonmembers to rent that space out?

: Yes we have member and non-member availability for all of our spaces. So it's been a great opportunity for people to come in and see this space. And we've had lots of different organizations in here. And it's great to have everyone come and be a part of what we're doing. I think it would be very short sighted to not include the community at large in what we're trying to do here. And having this be an asset for Columbus. Being a member has its privileges. So we do have Member Pricing on things but yes we're very excited to welcome lots of different organizations to the space.

: I ask that because you sit on the edge of Grandview Heights and there's not a lot of meeting space that would hold 50 to 70 people. That space is really very limited and at a premium in the immediate community. But then you're also right on the edge of downtown and so I'm sure that you could really market that beautifully to some overflow meeting space for downtown meeting, convention attendees.

: We like to think that downtown is an amenity. And Grandview would be as well. This lovely community, lots of places where you can go and have a wonderful meal and all that is so close.

: Yes we have lots of people here that loved the idea of being downtown but don't want to be downtown.

: Parking

: Yes we do have free parking here, which is different from our competitor. Most of our competitors of size. We're getting ready to open our second location in the Arena District here in just the next couple of weeks.

: That was my next question, let's transition right into that. Let's talk about that. You're going to be right on Nationwide Boulevard?

: Nationwide and Neil.

: So you're right in the middle in the heart of the Nationwide Arena and the Clippers stadium, you are going to be right there. What a great space! So what will that be? How will that be different than this space, or will it mirror it?

: It will be a more intimate space. It's only 12000 square feet, so it's smaller. The building is just fantastic and the location is great. And there is parking on the site. So that is available to members. And that makes it a different kind of a space for the Arena District.

: Free parking?

: It's not free parking. But I do have that available right there for our members. We have about 46 spots there. Well I think be very very helpful.

: One of the things that we find in coworking rate is that not everybody is here every day. They come and go. Some people are here every day. But a lot of people aren't. People don't necessarily need a parking spot. All of the time. So we are we are really pushing the boundaries of flexibility inside of this business.

: And we're trying to pare all of that with great hospitality. So one of the other amenities I would say is that we have a hospitality director here who is really very dedicated to making sure that everyone's experience in the space is great. Everyone who has a board meeting or a vistage meeting or conference or whatever. All of their needs are taken care of.

: It's a very nice amenity to have somebody on staff.

: It really is. Because it allows you to come in and do what you need to do and not have to worry about it. So again it's one of those opportunities that we provide to business owners and entrepreneurs where it lets them do what they need to do and not worry about the other things. We'll take care of the other things. You get down to business. That's why you're here.

: I love that. I had no idea. I did read that you had hired people from the hospitality industry but I didn't realize that they were very focused on doing those types of things for your members. That is really special. I love that. So with the new Versa location, who will you be attracting to that space versus the space. Or will it just be the same marketing plan?

: We already have pre licensed several of those spaces. We have found that a lot are people who are living right there in the neighborhood. So they're coming out of the condominiums there or close by. They want to be able to walk to work. Maybe right now they're working from home. And very excited about not working from home anymore and having something that's just really right there.

: That location also has several offices that are larger sized. So we have a lot more 4, 5, 6, 8 person offices than we do here. We hear we have a lot of 1, 3, or larger size spaces sold out right away here in Grandview Heights. And so we built out some larger spaces there. And and we're getting a lot of traction on that. So people with four or five employees who once again if you want to be in the Arena District, and you have a small firm of four or five people, really where are you going to go?

: Right. And like you said and have the amenities of just beautiful office space that's very impressive to clients when you walk in and it may be something that they couldn't have if they were furnishing and decorating on their own. And it really is very impressive and atmospheric. So that's great. I love it here.

: And I can't wait to show our new space.

: I know I can't wait to see it.

: I'm really excited about it.

: I was asking on the way in about the big scroll on the top of the what's going to happen with that.

: We're working on that. We're working on that. So we keep scraping it down and with every layer it still says Business First, which is fine. We love Business First and we're excited. They've been very curious about what we have done inside the space, and we look forward to having them come and see what we've done. They're going to get the first peek at it. It's all in process, let's put it that way. We did get our name on the building last week. But we still have the Business First scroll on the top.

: But it's so noticeable that you know keeping doing something differently with it's going to be just great, because it's really noticeable. And eye catching.

: So how can people find out more about Versa?

: You can find us online. We're at Versa dot works. And we have lots of information there. You can stop in so we take walk ins and we have our staff who is here Monday through Friday from 8a to 6p, they're here. Give us a call. So we have you Amy Minahan who is our Director of the space here, and Oliver Coffey who you have met. Trey who is doing our business development and we're all having a lot of fun. So we would welcome anyone who wants to check out what this is all about to come and see.

: And you know not every space is right for every person.

: But that's the beauty of this.

: That's the beauty of this. There's lots to learn about this trend that's happening and we're late to the trend as far as in the United States. So as always, the coast go first. But we're picking up steam quickly. You know people are really figuring this out.

: And it's really going to be a nice way for people to connect with one another and to work either independently or in small groups or like I said in enterprises. But allows them to get done what they need to do, and not worry about the stuff, the distractions.

: The distractions, right, because you're taking care of that for them.

: Right.

: And so Versa dot works. I would really encourage everybody listening to stop in and meet the staff and see this space and take a look around because it really is beautiful and unique and I think there's something for just about everybody. So I would encourage everybody to come in. But thank you for joining us and giving us a little more insight and diversity and we look forward to the next one opening soon.

: Yes, thank you.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix

Revolution Experiment

revolution experiment
: [00:00:25] Hi there This is Michelle Wilson I'm the executive director with the tri Village Chamber partnership. And you're listening to our podcast business inspirers. I'm really excited to have Mark Tinus with me today. Mark is with the revolution experiment and karate cowboy is one of the brands so we're going to talk a little bit about both of those things and all of those things and you today. So we're going to start out with you. OK and talk about what Mark wanted to be when you grow up.

: [00:00:51] Ooh. Well that's that's evolved a lot. Let's say it this way. I graduated from Ohio State back in 2000 as a mechanical engineer.

: [00:01:03] So when I was getting going I was really looking at you know how to work in a factory and work and operations and that was the life goal that I had for myself and really didn't have much vantage point outside of that until I started to travel. So when I started my career was with Anheuser-Busch in the burring department here in Columbus here in Columbus has a big big brewery up 71 there. And then they ended up promoting me and moving me out to the brewing department in Newark New Jersey. And so actually as I left Ohio and kind of broadened my horizons a little bit it kind of opened up a lot of doors and opportunities and I knew I didn't want to be on call 24/7 in a manufacturing facility.

: [00:01:45] My entire life as I've watched all my bosses and whatnot grow up so I went back to grad school at night at NYU and learned about this small profession called management consulting and so that was really kind of my entry point into oh wow there's this whole big business world out there beyond just making beer at the time which was all they really knew. So I got into consulting got into the consulting clubs and then when I left Anheuser I got into corporate and marketing strategy consulting. So I was actually working for a small boutique agency in Manhattan. But our base was in London. And so I traveled a lot. Did a lot in Western Europe and Africa South America just doing branding projects working for global spirits companies like Bacardi and their portfolio consists of like Grey Goose and Dewars and my guess which is a bunch of brands like that.

: [00:02:42] So it was kind of one of those ones where it wasn't necessarily part of the plan but it was a hell of a ride.

: [00:02:48] So yeah just kind of kept going on it.

: [00:02:50] That's amazing novel and curious you racked up and then eventually my wife was like I'd love to see you like in the house more and not on planes.

: [00:03:00] So I took one small step down so I took a job as a marketing director within our in North America and South America team. So I actually had 40 some odd markets in the Caribbean South America Central America that I was working on everything but Heineken was kind of what I always told people. So it was all the local brands if you've ever vacation in like the Bahamas there's a brand called Callick. I worked on that brand St. Lucia. There's a brand called Petone I worked on that brand and Panama Suriname bunch of others. And so that was a fun ride too. But that really opened my eyes to was I love the world of marketing but I loved the world of marketing strategy even more. And so I really got into this whole marketing on a budget philosophy because every one of my markets was an island or a small country and you know I would get to come back to a boardroom in New York and talk about two million dollar budgets for one campaign for the U.S. and I would be fighting for 20000 dollars to put up a billboard in Haiti. Right. And so I'm like you know these were so we had to think a little bit more creatively it became a more holistic model of of looking at brand building and needs to be really insightful about local culture and you know if you're if you're talking about a national brand of Haiti that is 99 percent market share and you're dealing with a public of you know a population of 10 million people but their net income is a dollar a day and your beers cost 50 cents.

: [00:04:31] What do you do. All right. How do you market that product you're not fighting another competitor because you're 99 percent market share you're not. You're not trying to you know steal all this disposable income because there isn't a lot of disposable income so what you'd like turn that into is a philosophy of business building and brand building where you started talking about economic stimulus and it's not about stealing their 50 cents a day it's about growing their income by 50 cents a day. So they have disposable income right. So we took a very cool approach to it. Heineken was a great playground because they were very loose and let us kind of explore and do much different things with it. And so that's really where I kind of got my teeth cut on. Wow. This isn't about like fill in Box A B and C this is about really getting out of your own comfort zone and doing different things. And once I kind of had a nibble that I was kind of addicted and then it just became very frustrated in corporate America. It was like I got to go start something.

: [00:05:29] And here you are. Now I'm here. So I have to go back for a minute because it's fascinating that you worked for for large brands and you were you were you would think have deep pockets and you were fighting for pennies of those budgets.

: [00:05:44] Well and it's all like It's all relative right. So when you're working for huge brands with huge you know revenue streams they're going to allocate budget to where they think the potential is and things like that. And you know if you're if you're talking about brands that really could grow but have to grow in innovative ways it's not something you're going to sink a bunch of budget towards because you know what's what's the goal of 100 percent market share. Brand You know you want to grow but you don't want. You know we're also in the alcohol industry. We don't want overconsumption. We want premium ization. We want to better people's lives. So you know there's a limit point to where you don't want to over invest in markets that are sure that don't have a ton of potential to grow.

: [00:06:28] And when I tell people I worked for Heineken and people's like eyes pop up now what a great huge company that you have that you worked with and it was always like shocking to folks to know that you know Heineken has a portfolio of brands in the U.S. alone. When I was there it was about less than 5 percent market share really. So for Heineken Koseki staccato which are all the brands that we had here in the U.S. you know all that summed up was was you know less than 5 percent. And so coming from Anheuser-Busch who is nearly 50 percent of the market. By the time I left I mean that's a you know light years difference in business size and how they and how they grow now globally there are much bigger brand. I worked a lot with a team in Mexico because they were their major those brands are very large in Mexico but it's always like kind of all that point of relativity right. We know our sandbox and folks are like Heineken huge in America and I'd say we make 10 times our money in Mexico right. That's because they're just the size of the business in Mexico and so it's it's always been this industry. So even though I've bounced around a ton in this industry is just super interesting because literally you go down any rabbit hole and there's you know there's brands there's categories there's you know times of when people are consuming products. And so to me it's just an ever changing like constant evolving thing that we get to get to explore every single day in school.

: [00:07:57] And I think it's also interesting that you went back to school and you still ended up in the beverage industry. You know you kind of it seems like this has been your hover of where you've spent. My

: [00:08:08] Wife has said I've never grown up out of the frat house. Yeah.

: [00:08:12] It's how to spin a multi decade career and never growing up and when you are 19 or 21 I mean 21 21.

: [00:08:19] That's exactly what you need to know.

: [00:08:21] That is interesting and also that you've been to all these exotic places and you came back to Columbus Ohio. Absolutely. Two really cool things. Yeah the Columbus story is great.

: [00:08:30] We get that question all the time which is oh you know Tess City USA you'd like our business which I'm sure we'll get to is very very innovation driven.

: [00:08:39] We're trying to do things outside of our category norms so we get that question about Columbus a lot and I go I've met my wife here in 2000 and this was the place we always called home. You know I was nine years on the East Coast and we were always like Oh when are we going to go home. You know like in nine years I mean that starts to tell you something about where you should live and where you're ultimately going to you know go back to raise your kids like you were raised and so there's something about the heartland you know people people that you want to get.

: [00:09:10] It must be the water. I don't know. But people do tend to want to come back. Yeah. You know and you raise their kids here like you said so. And certainly a great place to start a business. Absolutely. So let's let's talk a little bit about how you made the transition into starting a revolution is it's getting a lot of brick walls and a lot of headaches is probably the best way to put it.

: [00:09:31] I think the first person that said that yeah I'm just feel like we've all done this. This conversation changes when it goes from coffee to cocktails. But yes you know it's early in the morning. You drinking coffee.

: [00:09:46] Yeah.

: [00:09:48] You know I like I think most entrepreneurs got well educated in an industry and you know felt that whole 90 percent prepared to get into it when reality is we were probably about 10 percent prepared to get into it and that little bit of ignorance is what drives you to keep going forward. So you keep finding out things because if I would have had to talk to myself three years ago I don't know if I would have had the stomach three years ago to continue doing what we're doing. But luckily I didn't know that. So I just kept going.

: [00:10:18] But yeah I mean we I started working on this brand for karate cowboy with just kind of the intention of doing all the things that I had seen shot down in innovation departments for companies that I had worked on.

: [00:10:31] So big companies were always looking at innovative new trends and where to go. But you know for them to invest in a startup type idea like that is hit or miss where somebody like myself could go and start something like that and they could come in and buy it and then there assurance of success goes up dramatically. Right.

: [00:10:52] And to them that that investment in a two year old brand versus starting it up themselves is almost negligible to them. And so I saw that as a space you know someone that wants to get out of of corporate decision making and kind of start my own thing. I wanted to get into that and so I was looking at trends and all the wonderful market research things that we did at Heineken on what categories can we explore. I obviously like had kind of an affinity to international brands international categories. And it kind of fell in love with the social aspects of socky. And so I started exploring socky and why it hasn't really blown up in the U.S. the way that it could and how consumers really viewed that category and where the evolution was going to go. So on the research side it was all about Asian fusion and the progress of Asian food in America and how it's growing and culinary usually leads beverage by you know three to five years or so.

: [00:11:53] And so as you see the sprout up of other cool Ohio based entrepreneurs who are doing things like fusion sushi and tons of the different fusion restaurants that are coming out of Cleveland but not you know going statewide and going even even region wide you know those are super indicative of where where folks are getting kind of socialized into it because you know 15 years ago if we were having this conversation tequila wouldn't have been in a mainstream bar would have been in a Mexican joint. Right. Just saying you know you wouldn't have gone to happy hour and Grandview Avenue and seen taco tuesday at every single bar. Right. Like that's not that wasn't an acculturation factor that played into the Midwest pretty even. You know American culture. But if you looked at how fish tacos were blowing up in California and then it kind of like spread. And we always said there's always these wonderful correlations that you can study on like how acculturation works in America. We always looked at Mexican beer on and correlated it to avocado consumption. So markets and avocados were being consumed at probably meant there was a lot of places serving guacamole probably meant there was a lot of places that were serving Mexican beer. And so it was that like blew up in guacamole wasn't just in random you know Mexican restaurants. And you didn't get it at any any place. You know tequila grew Mexican beard grew. So on and so forth. So we were looking at that kind of as our fore sight of like all right now let's look at Asian culture Asian fusion and figure out how we can kind of Americanized the socky category in a way.

: [00:13:28] And one of the big things that I was looking at when we were starting that up was. How do consumers behave with socky right. Like it's it's right now it's just so ingrained in a sushi restaurant culture either you know folks know hot or cold you know socky bombs they know. You know is it cloudy is it not. Those are the kind of the education stream of where we're psyche's gone but not a lot of folks are going to socky tastings like they are going to wine tastings and really understanding that it's very similar actually like education trail instead of grapes you're talking rice and rice polish. You're talking water just like you are with wine. It's all about regions in Japan. So there is this like very kind of connoisseurship like play to socky which is how they've grown that category to date. We were trying to shortcut that by not saying like hey we're going to go around and do these socky Education Tours. Rather let's look at how other categories have grown through like calk cocktail culture through mainstream bar use. Right. And let's fix some of those fundamental like product issues with socky. And so when we got into that it was all right. Shelf life is a problem for buyers because they open it it's like wine. People are trying to drink like spirits meaning like have a little bit put it in a cocktail or five ounce six pounds.

: [00:14:49] Right.

: [00:14:49] And if you are going to go and get a socky pour in a on sushi restaurant you're not getting the whole bottle right like you're getting. They're pouring it in a socky teeny or they're doing a cocktail with it. Well in shelf life becomes an issue because if you pour out of the bottle on Monday and it taste different on Wednesday now your cocktails program is all out of sorts right. Or if you have to throw it away by Friday. Now your waist and you know the bar economics don't work. So that was kind of issue number one for us was like let's fix shelf life. Issue number two is let's simplify because the cocktails using it as an ingredient we're doing multiple pours. So we were trying to combine all that under one umbrella and then also you know the kind of the biggest entity for me was really trying to just

: [00:15:35] Socialize it in the spirit world because a lot of folks had the misconception that it was a sphere are ready. You know for the good bad and indifferent of it all folks were like Oh it's it's you know it's not 40 percent alcohol and you're like nuts it's like Rice wants 13 to 15 percent alcohol. And so we were just trying to kind of almost create a product that fit the already current existing perception so that we weren't having to educate over the top to get them away from that perception. OK.

: [00:16:03] And so that's where a worker like Albert came from a fusion of American and Japanese which is karate and Cowboy was a little tongue in cheek. We laughed a lot when we came up with and we're like actually is kind of picture perfect for what we're trying to say and we're like you know that's you know not taking ourselves too seriously but really trying to accentuate the two cultures that are that are represented in it. So we took socky from the Kobe region of Japan which I went over there and scoped out quite a few facilities but we have a great supply relationship over there now. We picked the Kobe Osaka region because they were a little sweeter Saki's less dry. And then we combine it with with the six times distilled grain neutral which is which is a corn based liquor. If we would filter it'd be a vodka if you'd put it in a barrel it's whiskey like it's kind of one of those mentalities. But we're taking it you know and it's unfinished perspective combining it all and then filtering it. So you know I always say I would love to just be able to say it's kind of like vodka socky right. Make it a lot easier for people to understand.

: [00:17:11] But in technical terms what we're doing is we're taking you know an unfinished sphere combining it with our psyches and then finishing it as if it would be a vodka. But by standards we can't go that so. So that's what we that's the product that we create and it creates its own kind of category it's got a lot of floral and and creamy notes that you'd expect out of a socky. But it is that 40 percent alcohol that added alcohol gives us the shelf life back so it can behave just like a vodka can and doesn't spoil it doesn't start to degrade over time doesn't have to be refrigerated yet idiota and so it kind of ticks all those boxes that we were really trying to fix with the product to kind of match up to the way consumers were viewing that category. So that's that was the the deck that we put together three years ago. Now where that's like evolve to has been crazy but. But you know that's that was the initial thinking behind why we created all this. It wasn't just two people sitting in a room being like let's make Zake.

: [00:18:14] Now the thing.

: [00:18:15] Well you mentioned the social part of it and I'm interested in that because did you mean the social part of it in regards to when you indicated that you didn't want to change people's perception but you wanted to work with their perception is that what you mean.

: [00:18:29] Yes I mean I think I think the when you're looking at the alcohol industry as a whole I mean like we're we're really trying to promote like we say this at Heineken all the time we were social networks before we were social networking before computers existed right. Right. You'd go to the pub you'd meet up with people and chat. And that's where you met new people. So maybe you met their husband or wife at a bar. You are the right guy is a social lubricant as well of sorts with the liquid. But it's about consumption like occasion and and how we how we pull it together. Socky is that and ceremoniously is that for in Japan. And so when we were looking at it it was very much so celebratory. It was a huge part of wedding ceremonies. It was a huge part of hanging socky barrel when you open a new business. It's similar to kind of like what we do when we you know smash a champagne bottle on a boat right. Right. Like you know a big part of the alcohol industry is kind of intertwining and those like celebratory social occasions. And if we wanted to embrace that just like I think most companies want to embrace even even down to the brewpub level of just having of a location where you can bring people together enjoy one thing not make it too serious you know. Right. But give folks that playground to meet new people and share experiences with old friends. Right.

: [00:19:50] So absolutely. Yeah. Is anybody else out there doing socky that you know of when you started there.

: [00:19:57] Yeah there are a few. All international. They there was one company kind of doing a similar thing to us with vodka in Amsterdam and they're still doing pretty well out in Europe and Asia. And then there was actually a mixology competition where folks are coming up with innovative products and there was a Jen Psaki blend that came out of the U.K. about three years ago or so still relatively light Neish as a market.

: [00:20:26] But a lot of folks are playing with it. It's more it's less brands are doing it. But you're starting to see unlike the mixology world and especially on the coasts it getting incorporated into more and more high level cocktail making. OK.

: [00:20:41] Which is really where we want to kind of promote the brand and and push it because it does just add a very unique twist to things that you know. It's no different than a chef finding a new ingredient. It's you know it just adds to the breadth of what folks can do. Right. And that's kind of where we've played in the angle and then locally here we have a ton of great spirits producers like popping up and all doing really cool things and it's you know that becomes the question all along is like how money can we sustain in this market how can we do this and you know if you view it as the community that we're building here you know we're doing what we're doing Middle West is doing what they're doing watersheds got their you know perspective you've got new new distilleries popping up in Indiana with noble cut. You've got 451 and Clintonville everything here new and new and here it is.

: [00:21:31] Yeah. Malins hi hi bank high but I think it's showing great guys and their place looks amazing are ready to keep driving by hoping I can catch a glimpse.

: [00:21:41] I know that you know they're hard at work. Adam and Jordan team are they're great guys and you know but we're all we all are focused on growing the industry right.

: [00:21:53] So Central High is really gaining a great reputation as having some world class distilleries in Switzerland.

: [00:22:00] Yeah I mean when we did we did we we just won a couple of three medals all three of our products at the San Francisco World competition in 2017 which has been great. You know we've we've loved that because it's an accolade for us that helps to put us on the map. You know we it's exactly the question you just asked which is who else is doing what we're doing. Not a lot. Which is great. Is an innovative company you want to kind of be on your own as a reference point company. It's really difficult right.

: [00:22:34] Because if I made a vodka I could say well you know if it tastes like it's mine right like it's different like this or we want it to be smooth or we want it to have these notes we want it to be this right when nobody has a point of reference of what your liquid is. It's really tough to start educating folks on what it should taste like or why that's quality or what. You know as you bring into it. So competition is like that helped to put us on the map because we're you know you're going to 40 key tasters that are familiar with every single style and they're just basically judging you on the merit of. Are you making a good product. Like it's not. It's not like oh I'm a gin drinker and I like it better or worse than gin. It's. It's you know are we taking the time and the diligence to make a really quality product that fits the style that we're trying to go after. And and we've got good accolades for it.

: [00:23:25] I read that it was there were over 2000 entries and it was a blind tasting. So absolutely yes. Really.

: [00:23:32] And in three years you've started something and you're winning medals which is that and to be honest with you it's again it all draws back to community.

: [00:23:40] We you know when I was coming up with this brand in a in a basement in Brooklyn you know we were looking at all of our network.

: [00:23:50] And so when I when I was creating it we were came time to talk about the actual manufacturing and putting together the products we used. I use my network to to kind of find us a good distiller in Louisville. OK. You know the time.

: [00:24:03] So if you look at my timeline I left Columbus in 2006 and got back in 15.

: [00:24:11] So those nine years as everybody here is very familiar with. It was a pretty drastic change right. Like it and I felt a little bit like back to the future as I like walked out.

: [00:24:21] I'm like What is this. This is this is short notice. I can't change if you're got one.

: [00:24:27] So yeah I mean it's a massive change so I didn't my network was very small. None of these craft distilleries existed in Columbus and in 2006 so you know so I didn't really know what I was coming back to. Like I said we were really moving to call on this because we wanted to live in Columbus and so we had a distilling partnership when I started this three years ago in Louisville because we're like it's the Mecca right. Louisville Kentucky horse that's what you makers. I mean this is where you should be if you're going to create a quality product. Well lo and behold I mean it's like anything else. It takes good people with good execution and you know investing in the right things and you find good and bad in every community right. And in that regard and the more and more I actually created a good relationship with Ryan Lang over Middle West and we started jamming on the fact of you know it started at a bar like also so we're sitting there drinking it still happens we were sitting there drinking it. At North High brewing and he turned to me and he goes Why are you making drives down to Louisville to make like small tweaks to your product and doing this this and this.

: [00:25:36] And I was like I God it's because we just needed to get it done and we thought we had a really good relationship with. We didn't have a really good relationship with our with our distillery down on the hill and it just came time to pick it apart and say like what can we do this better and you know Ryan was super confident that he could. They've done a lot with investing in their place and they make some really great products. And so we just started picking it apart. And so a year and a half later we moved all our production in-house with them here in Columbus. Now that's been a love that collaborative. Absolutely. That's amazing. Well I mean it just it's. It's always one of those things and I'm you know I'm kind of a soul founder sitting around so having even a sounding board with you know the team over there. And I think that a lot of folks just don't realize how collaborative we all are when we have ideas and it's like what. Did you try that. Like we tweak this and you know we tweak the process and so you know that was about a year ago now we've been with them for a year.

: [00:26:35] There's a few there's a few. I mean they have some beautiful. So good for you.

: [00:26:39] And so we got that done. And those were actually the first spirits that we pulled off the line at Middle West were the ones that we competed with.

: [00:26:49] And it's just and I think folks that have seen our evolution or have tried our products have seen like how we've evolved even as a company and you never want to say like the first thing that you ever did was worse than anything else and you did. But you know progress is good and learning how people experience your product and cleaning it up and you know we went from a flavors only company to you know doing pure spirits and really like bringing back the genuine genuine nature of what we're doing as a product base and Middle West was a pivotal part of us being able to do that you know without ten million dollars and build our place.

: [00:27:25] And they're smart guys.

: [00:27:27] Exactly what's been doing and they're very good at what they do. So great partnership definitely. Yeah fantastic. So tell me the three the three main flavors.

: [00:27:37] Sure. We. So we started actually again kind of coming back to that insight base was we kind of wanted to create some buzz and some attention and do some of our most radical stuff up front. So we actually launched a honey wasabi blend sweet and spicy sounds very radical. A lot of folks you know it's definitely a wasabi notes are really strong in it. So we and by intention we normalize it by doing a ton of bloody marys with it. So you know folks get that horseradish spice notes to it but it also came from the culinary world sweet spicy.

: [00:28:13] There was a lot of Asian fusion restaurants that were doing this kind of honey base your main dishes and wasabi based side so that they could you know blend those two flavor profiles together so we were kind of taking that to heart.

: [00:28:26] Then we launch I think a more mass appeal flavor which was ginger mint. So obviously plays up very well on that mojito annual world which in just a moment are really great for flavor profiles within there. And then third which is very backwards in the way that we talk about the brand now was our natural like unflavored base and kind of two reasons for that one was you know

: [00:28:49] We learned a lot as a flavor company and we really wanted folks to be more educated on what our base spirit was because we didn't want people to think again without a reference point. What am I chasing the base spirit or is it the flavors that you're adding. We needed we needed our own reference point. I think for lack of a better term. But then too was actually the distilling capabilities right. Like I always like politically incorrectly say when you launch an unflavored version it's like running through the park naked you'd better be a pretty flawless right to be able to be able to show that off.

: [00:29:24] Right.

: [00:29:25] And so that was really we could not get to that level with where we were in Louisville. And we tried we just weren't getting there. And I think that's a that's a tough decision. Sometimes when you want to put a product out in market but you have to be really honest with yourself that it's maybe not ready to go yet and delay and delay. But then we got it out great.

: [00:29:48] And now that's kind of our and probably seemed like a long time. But it's only been three separate in terms I mean I think that's why I'm fascinated by the learning and the growing and the changing. I mean within three years the awards are winning in three short years that's pretty amazing. Yeah. Well thank you. And before we wrap up I want to talk quickly about simple times absolutely. You launched a new line.

: [00:30:09] We did. Yeah and I mean that's that was the birth of again. You know it just kind of constantly learning.

: [00:30:15] We were out in the market with karate cowboy so much with trying to educate people on the cocktail culture of it all and you know I would go to an event and we'd make a thousand cocktails and people would love the cocktail and the best we could ever do for them was hand them a recipe card that said go home and you know squeeze pineapples and ginger and lemon and Lyman. Yes. You're going to go in and then get a confused look back and you know an angry grunt and then they leave.

: [00:30:44] You know so what we well we call me. That was a big event last night. And so yeah we.

: [00:30:52] So we kind of took that inside to Heart which was it came more from an internal need for us which was we need to be able to make consistent real all natural cocktails that promote spirits brands in the best possible light without just pumping it full of sugar and fructose where it just overshadows the spirits barrier. Because you know if I took an overly sugared mass you know ball of liquid and then just throw any alcohol into it it's going to overshadow it's all going to taste the same. Jada and sugar negates bad alcohol. So that's essentially why those are created the way that they're created right is is put the least common denominator in and it's still going to taste good. Well we kind of take the perspective of it's time to grow up right. Folks aren't going and just buying the worst possible liquor to put in their stuff for their house parties and therefore they're buying mixers though that overshadow that purchase that they've just made. If you're spending 10 extra dollars for a bottle of liquor will then respect your cocktail and make it a better cocktail. Right. So we took that vantagepoint on it.

: [00:31:56] We started creating mixes that were not only like freshly crafted with 100 percent all natural ingredients but then we say surprisingly simple there. I affectionately use the term dump and go cocktails which are literally bring your vodka bring your bourbon bring your champagne yet put it in our mix and you've got a craft cocktail and that's like just intended to kind of marry the convenience and quality factors that folks who really want to go after and you shouldn't have to sacrifice one for the other. And so that's really where the birth of simple times came from. And that one is only six months old and that's evolved we went from three flavors of that to now we're at I think 13 or 14 are you I would like started to launch out. It was really awesome because we were able to to kind of grow that and bolster it through farmers markets and I would say like real life market research which is put something in front of somebody they taste it they buy it. We like it. Let's put that up. Let's figure out a new flavor that can fit in that line.

: [00:32:56] And so we've been super flexible with you know we're only limited by the fresh produce we can bring in. Right. And so what you are looking for is you know to evolve this even bigger. Do more partnerships do more collaboration. So you see things like we'll be back in the farmers market scene but now now we're you know we've got a lot of mules and lemonades that are that are now selling in grocery stores across we just did a collaboration Shandi with North High where they're using our blood orange lemonade. We're using their gold and they'll put them together. Now you've got an all local Shandi you know and so you'll see much more of that coming out of this brand with those three tenants that I kind of always talk about with as a freshly crafted simple but then home grown. And so that has to we have to live that ethos which is not only worked with other local businesses in collapsing and doing all these things but also how do we integrate ourselves better in the local agricultural community and work with local farmers and do a real stem to stern vertically and horizontally on how we can work well with everybody because that's a good reason to believe. I mean there's I think one of the challenges when you were looking at brands and were growing things from Columbus specifically. We can't all of us as business owners we can't just flag local because we have a building and we're and we're local. We have to really look intrinsically. Why does it matter that we're making this in Columbus Ohio. If we're ever going to get a national stage presence for what we're doing right.

: [00:34:27] And I think with simple times when I look at our competitors that are coming out of Brooklyn coming out of California you know there reason to believe is their cool hip cities that are doing mixology right. Our reason to believe is we've got awesome agriculture in the Midwest. We grow this stuff. We should have the freshest most real ingredient products coming out and people should understand that and we're going to be knowledge for agriculture you know and that's what people think of when they think of Ohio or Midwestern.

: [00:34:57] Absolutely. We can rest our hats on it and go where are you.

: [00:35:01] Where are you growing those strawberries in the fire escape in Brooklyn. Right absolutely. We have it here and we should be promoting that and we should be pushing it out on a national stage so where people know that you don't fly over these places. You get great products from these places and that's what we're that's the mission that we're really trying to push out there with simple times because I think it's I think it's time and I think it's you know honestly I think it's a great product but everybody else can go it is a great.

: [00:35:29] But that's what we really need. That's really where we're we're coming after. It's a huge departure for us as a business because now we own all that manufacturing.

: [00:35:37] We're doing that all ourselves so to speak comes in really handy with the.

: [00:35:43] Kinko's my dad's happy because I can use an engineering degree right. Yeah. It wasn't four years of waste. Yeah.

: [00:35:52] So yeah that's yeah that's wonderful. Well I love it. I'm so happy for you guys and such great success in a short period of time I know you have many many more great things to come. Where can we find simple times and revolution experiment called cowboy where.

: [00:36:05] Yeah well check out either one of our websites karate cowboy spirit Dom or simple times mixers Dom there's a map with store locators on all of them but quite a few we're in about 20 now. Groceries slash liquor stores for simple times Wilens market and Clintonville 1837 and Chateau wine and spirits for New Albany and Polaris were working with hills markets both locations I saw Twisted Vine twisted vinegar and Huffman's and U.A. Huffer for the tri village.

: [00:36:40] So yeah that's that's been going very very well. New went out in Wellington speckled and has a great great shop in Old Worthington and then you'll see that the farmers markets this summer Dublin Westerville Burlington Grandville so it will be all around those different places.

: [00:36:58] And then we have an online shop too so check out the surf shop and you'll be dig this and will be a dig fest showing off both of our. Yeah that's great.

: [00:37:07] Yeah and karate cowboy most most local liquor stores essentially state agencies would have us. So yeah and Tess's.

: [00:37:13] Thank you so much for telling us the story. And I would encourage everybody to get out there and all of those places and pick some things up and have some cocktails.

: [00:37:22] Appreciate it.